Exploration Local
Exploration Local
Venturing Through the French Broad Paddle Trail with MountainTrue's Jack Henderson
LINKS
French Broad Paddle Trail
Mountain True
Conserving Carolina
Made by Mountains Outdoor Equity Fund
French Broad River Keepers
Mike Andress
Host, Exploration Local
828-551-9065
mike@explorationlocal.com
Podcast Website
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Instagram: explorationlocal
The French Broad is home to more than 40 access points and 20 riverside campsites managed by federal, state and local governments, as well as non-profits, businesses and volunteers. In this episode, I sit down with Jack Henderson from Mountain True and we talk in depth about the French Broad Paddle Trail, from the tranquil banks of Rosman to the distant shores of Douglas Lake, tennessee. We unveil the geographical tale of the French Broad River, lake Tennessee. We unveil the geographical tale of the French Broad River. But our adventure doesn't end with geography. We delve into the heart of conservation, where collaboration is truly the key. From the efforts of the French Broad Riverkeeper Program to the tireless work of local partners, we'll uncover the passion driving the stewardship of this natural wonder. And speaking of passion, get ready to hear about the upcoming enhancements to river access points and camping opportunities that await eager outdoor enthusiasts. With the combined efforts of local outfitters, federal agencies and non-profits, the French Broad isn't just a destination. It's a community-driven experience like no other. So grab your paddle, open your heart and join us as we push off to explore the French Broad Paddle Trail, a symbol of unity, environmental respect and the boundless joy found in the great outdoors. I'll see you on the other side.
Speaker 1:You're listening to Exploration Local, a podcast designed to explore and celebrate the people and places that make the Blue Ridge and Southern Appalachian Mountains special and unique. My name is Mike Andrus, the host of Exploration Local. Join us on our journey to explore these mountains and discover how they fuel a spirit of adventure. We encourage you to wander far, but explore local, let's go. So we paddled this morning. We're back in the studio today. Thanks so much for coming in the studio to talk about this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, super grateful to be here Mike Thanks so much for having me and talking about the paddle trail today and super grateful we got out for a float this morning. It was a beautiful day for it.
Speaker 1:It was incredible. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk just real quickly about the geography. So let's talk about sort of the headwaters, where it runs to where it terminates, and then we're going to talk a little bit about some of the special projects with the campsites like we talked about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the French Broad River, the section that we help manage as the French Broad Paddle Trail, flows from Rosman, north Carolina, here in Transylvania County, all the way through Cocke County, tennessee, into Newport, tennessee, at Douglas Lake. So that includes Transylvania County, county Seat being Brevard, where the river is kind of narrow and sinuous and there's trees and it's kind of tight and slow and things like that. It's beautiful. Into Henderson County where it kind of still is slow and low but a little bit wider, a lot of farmlands, a lot of floodplain in those areas. Then into Buncombe County where it's a little bit wider still. You're starting to see more riffles and bedrock and a little bit of gradient, although the whitewater is calm and relaxed.
Speaker 2:Then into Madison County where Hot Springs is and things like that, and that's where the whitewater is and the rafting and the kayaking and the good rapids, before it kind of continues as such into Cocat County, tennessee, where there's national forest land and yet more rapids and big gradient on the sides in terms of cliffs and, you know, mountains and things like that, before it kind of slackens back out and slows as it enters into Douglas Lake. So that's about 140 miles altogether. That's where we do our work in programming. But the French Broad River does continue below Douglas Lake for a little bit before confluencing with the Holston River where it forms the Tennessee River near Knoxville.
Speaker 1:Wow. So there's a lot of literally moving parts to this and a lot of small creeks and things like that, that sort of dump into the French Broad that just increases its flow as you go through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, major tributaries that you or your listeners might be familiar with are the actual forks of the French Broad down in Transylvania County the North Fork, west Fork and East Fork. There's the Davidson. There's the Little River In Henderson County, there's the Mills and Mud Creek In Buncombe County, there's the Swannanoa River and Harmony Creek. Madison County there's Big Laurel and Spring Creek. There's a variety of tributaries that come in and add flow and character throughout the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's amazing, and you all the French Broad Riverkeeper. That's a program that exists within Mountain True. So this is not just its own standalone thing. This is kind of part of a bigger mission and a bigger vision that Mountain True has for this river, this region, this whole area.
Speaker 2:That's correct, yeah, so Mountain True is a regional nonprofit advocacy organization that also does quite a bit of stewardship of our public lands and resources, and we're focused on clean water, resilient forests and healthy communities. And so the French Broad River Keeper Program specifically, is a program within the clean waters area of our work and that focuses on swimmable, drinkable, fishable waters here in the French Broad River watershed, and one of our programs within that is the French Broad Paddle Trail, which is focused on access, stewardship, signage, camping and information along the river Basically all things related to recreation on the French Broad River. But the French Broad River Keeper Program otherwise, we do water quality monitoring, we do pollution enforcement, keeping an eye on bacteria and other issues all across the watershed, and so that kind of water quality arm and our recreation arm fit together really well to ensure that the river is protected and clean, but also that it's accessible and fun and safe.
Speaker 1:Perfect. Well, that's a great backdrop, so thanks for painting the huge picture. This gives us a little bit of context of what we're talking about today, but specifically what we want to focus in on is this French Broad Paddle Trail.
Speaker 2:Here in North Carolina our state trails program. I can't remember the numbers right off hand, but between 10 and 15 state trails and most of those are terrestrial trails. Think of like the Mountains to Sea Trail, you know, or the Fonteflores State Trail or the Hickory-Dunk Gorge State Trail. But there are also paddle trails. So the French Broad River is a paddle trail in the state trail system the Ha River State Trail, the Reedy River and a few other ones across the state.
Speaker 2:Here on the French Broad the French Broad River State Trail was designated in 1987, and that was a result of the powers that be determining that the river had sufficient access points and connectivity and unified management behind it and kind of an energy of recreation that kind of elevated it to this quality of experience. And so between the late 80s and the early 2000s that mostly just kind of was something on paper, it existed in legislation, there were some interested parties kind of working on managing the river for that. There were some interested parties kind of working on managing the river for that. But the river was also in poor condition in certain ways and there wasn't as much energy behind Stewart's Buzz there is now and over time it kind of got better and better and more access came together. No-transcript experience that it is now and kind of in that kind of early 2000s, you know, 2010 era, is when I really consider the trail to be launched, kind of to become reminiscent of what it is today.
Speaker 2:So, between now and then we've kind of increased all those amenities that were created back at that time.
Speaker 1:I love to kind of talk a little bit about the number of campsites that you all actually manage. The one that we saw today is somebody could pull over there, but the facilities aren't there, it's not marked, it's not named. Well, I guess it may be named. At least you had an idea of what it could be named. But yeah, let's talk about some of those campsites that exist right now, the of recreation and stewardship and access for the river.
Speaker 2:You know we're kind of the we're the state's official partner. You know, for the French Red River State Trail we're the ones that kind of are that liaison to the state government. But you know county governments, you know state governments, the federal government, the Forest Service, local governments and other nonprofits and even businesses all partner together to create and steward access, do on river stuff etc. So we're one of many groups here that do that. But specifically what you know Mountain Truth's Paddle Truck Program really focuses in on is, you know, creating and maintaining access points, creating and maintaining riverside campsites. You know, maintaining unified signage and also information like a website and print map and things like that. So kind of within that, you know, one of our unique offerings and things that we do is creating and maintaining, you know paddle trail specific campsites. So these are campsites that you cannot as a user drive into from the road but you can access from the river, you know, as a stopover point for a one night trip or for doing the entire river system. And so we have, you know, a campsite here in Transylvania County, we have one in Henderson County, we have two in Buncombe and two in Madison.
Speaker 2:We maintain six currently and those campsites you know they kind of vary in terms of like shape and feel, in terms of where they are if they're in the, if you're, you know, in like a field or a forest or like a bluff, things like that but they all have the same basic amenities.
Speaker 2:They all have an access point out of the river you need to get in and out of your boat. They have, you know, a picnic table, a fire ring, an elevated composting toilet, you know, space to, you know, pitch a tent or put up a hammock, things like that, and they're, all you know, kind of consistent in terms of their amenities, of offerings. So those are the ones that we maintain. But there are other campsites that other kind of private outfits maintain as well, that are more campsites that you can drive into and access but also just happen to be along the river and are available for paddle trail overnight users. And our goal for our sites is to have one to where someone could theoretically do that entire 140 mile section of river between Rosman and Newport, camping along the way at reasonable stopover points along the way, and there's a couple of spots where it's a little bit longer stretches, but more or less, you know, those sites that we have create that experience.
Speaker 1:That's great. Let's unpack a little bit of what we did today. So I know we just did a small section. We could have done a little bit different, but we focused right on trying to get to that campsite Water Could have been a little bit different, but we focused right on trying to get to that campsite Water flow again was up a little bit, but just beautiful. I mean the springtime, everything's budding, blooming, it's coming out, but this particular spot is just really picturesque. But let's talk about that and then why this particular place is so important and why did you earmark this one particular spot?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. Yeah, so today we floated from Pisgah Forest River Access kind of right there in Pisgah Forest, right outside of the city of Brevard, down to Everett Road, which is also, I think, a Pisgah Forest address, but here in central Transylvania County and there's a variety of great kind of you know part day trips that are short across this region that we could have chosen. But I focused on that one because right now we have a lot of really cool programming happening in transylvania county and there's a variety of reasons for that. You know, it's the headwaters of the river, it's the first county it flows through, there's a lot of opportunity there in terms of, just you know, interest, but there's also good partnerships happening too, and so in transylvania county we're currently working with some funding that we have available through the state trails program.
Speaker 2:Back a few years ago, the state of North Carolina General Assembly budgeted or allocated funding in their budget for State Trails. Specifically, it was called the Great Trail State. The Great Trail State Coalition was the lobbying group that advocated for this, and the funding they got from it was the Complete the Trails Fund, and so Mountain True in my position has been the steward of those funds across the region, kind of looking to allocate them towards eligible helpful projects. And so here in Transylvania County our local TDA, our Tourism Development Authority, a few years ago internally commissioned a study called the Blueway Master Plan for the French Broad River in Transylvania County and that was a roadmap for projects that could improve access to the river and experiences for paddlers, for visitors, for tourists, but also for locals. I'm a huge fan of the report because it helps leverage natural resources from a tourism standpoint. But everything we do as part of that benefits locals as well, myself included in that.
Speaker 2:So here in Transylvania County there's a lot of energy towards improving what we currently have and so we floated this section. We did today because I wanted to show you Pisgah Forest River access where currently it's a gravel lot with a boat ramp that we're looking to kind of replace that boat ramp with a better one, kind of make it a little more accessible and smoother and lower grade and things like that, replace some signage and things of that nature. But then where we took out was a property that Conserving Carolina, our land trust partner in this region, recently acquired for the sake of public access to the river for this campsite to be built and for them to do floodplain restoration as well, and we're hopeful that we'll be reimbursing them for that purchase through some funding that we have access to through that same pot of funds from the General Assembly. So just a neat little section that's going to be like it's a couple miles long, it's short, it's fun, has a lot of potential for new access and has a lot of energy at the put in and take out.
Speaker 1:It's amazing to me all of the different organizations that actually that it takes to fund to advocate for to steward it, that actually that it takes to fund to advocate for to steward it's really a synergistic relationship between those groups, which is really, really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. We're fortunate to work with a variety of awesome partners across the entire watershed. So here in North Carolina we're in four counties you know fifth in Tennessee and so on any given project or any given basis, we're working with, you know, government agencies, including federal agencies, like the US Forest Service in Madison County. You know we're at the Episodic National Forest. We work with state governments, including, obviously, the state park system and state trails program that supports us for the state trails program, and then also, you know, with the North Carolina Wildlife Resource Commission that does a lot around fisheries and angling, access and things like that. So from the government we work with those two. And then we also work with local governments, like, you know, county parks and recreation programs. You know, city governments in all the counties.
Speaker 2:I won't go into detail, but we work with each and every parks and recreation program and or you know, their like farmlands program, depending on what we're working on. But we also work with local businesses Down here in Henderson, transylvania County. We work with Headwaters Outfitters and Lazy Otter Outfitters. We also work with a variety of the outfitters in Asheville and further downstream and then local businesses or I mentioned local businesses and then local nonprofits, so organizations like Conservative in Carolina, that's a land trust that can acquire and manage land here. But we also work with Riverlink in Asheville for the similar types of projects in that area. And then other kind of more advocacy, stewardship-based groups like the Mills River Partnership or the French River Partnership or groups like that kind of all across the board that help us accomplish our mission and goals.
Speaker 1:Wow, those are a lot of relationships to the bridge and to manage and to kind of keep going and all be. They're all of the kindred spirit, they're all trying to do some of the very same thing. So I didn't realize it was that many agencies and organizations that you have to work with. But that makes sense to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and kind of the reason for that, you know, among just the interest in partnering as such, as the French Broad River you know the 140 miles that we work on in this region you know like it's not managed by one particular entity or agency. Like if you go out west and you float, like the Grand Canyon or the Salmon, you know kind of these big picturesque multi-day river trips, typically there's one, maybe two government agencies, you know, the National Park Service or the Forest Service, us Forest Service. That's kind of managing those places. They're covering the permits, they're owning and managing the access points and they're kind of setting the rules and regulations around that.
Speaker 2:And here, you know, on the French Broad River, there is not one entity that does that and that's, you know, nice in some ways because it makes it, you know, more accessible in some ways. There aren't, you know, lottery permits on the water and there aren't fees and things like that. But it makes it more challenging in terms of like ensuring that everyone's treating the river, you know, nicely, they're not polluting it and that there's, you know, equitable access areas with accessibility and things like that. And so as a result, it kind of just takes this much larger partnership of entities to provide these. You know basic services and opportunities. You know equal, if not better, to what you might see on a river managed by one particular organization or agency.
Speaker 1:Good, good, good. What I'd love to do is kind of talk a little bit about why these are so important from a recreation perspective, not just for people traveling in, but for people that live here and just looking to get away. Because we were talking earlier about we can drive, we kind of think of having to go on an adventure, we're driving to these places, but there's these overnight camping, remote-ish kind of places that are right here in our backyard.
Speaker 2:So the campsite that we visited today is not currently open. It will be within, hopefully, a month or so. We're probably going to call it Poplar Bend. The property that it's on is off of Everett Road and this is a property that Conserving Carolina purchased last fall for the reason of becoming a public access point and Riverside campsite and also, more than likely, some kind of floodplain restoration work in the middle of it. It's a 16-acre property off the French Broad River, there in Pisgah Forest and, as I mentioned before, we're planning to reimburse them for that purchase through a grant and so the campsite portion of that is going to be located on the upstream portion of that property and we're excited about that because it kind of puts it in a really important area. There are a couple riverside campsites further upstream in Transylvania County managed by a couple of variety of private businesses that are open to the public to use for the fee, and we have some campsites kind of further down into Henderson County. So this kind of puts a campsite in between those two, making it usable for people that are doing a multi-day trip. That kind of includes that area.
Speaker 2:In terms of the site itself, the basic amenities that we have and we'll be offering. There are, like I mentioned before, we'll be building an access out of the river that enters into the property. We'll have a nice picnic table there, nice firing. We do elevated composting toilets to kind of keep, you know, human waste, you know, out of the floodplain and out of the river and also kind of like a moan open space for users, you know, to tent camping or hammock camping, things like that. And so we're excited about that because, you know, just those sites themselves offer such a unique experience, what you're talking about for people that want to have, you know, like this multi-day adventure. You know where they're paddling downstream from their canoe or kayak but don't necessarily have the means or the knowledge or the you know the, the equipment to do a big trip. You know out West, you know in in in the Rockies or on the Grand Canyon, or even on the boundary waters or or things like that. Like here in the Southeast, we have quite a few blueways or paddle trails where you can do multi-day trips, but not a whole lot. Right here in western North Carolina and the French Broad is a unique spot where you can do a one-night trip with five miles beforehand and five miles afterwards, or you can do like a seven-day trip, you know, covering 140 miles, and this campsite facilitates that experience right here in Transylvania County. Or I guess we're in Henderson County talking right now, but where we were this morning in Transylvania County, or I guess we're in Henderson County talking right now, but where we were this morning in Transylvania County, and so we're excited about that.
Speaker 2:And just yeah to your point. Like you know a lot of these, the river, the French Rod River, is not a wilderness location, you know there's. At any given point, you're never usually more than a mile or two from a road, if not less. And but these sites, though, are oftentimes they're in old farms, you know, or they're in forests, you know, they're just in the floodplain, where they don't have a whole lot of development around them, depending on how the roads are arranged.
Speaker 2:And so pretty quickly and easily, you can get to a place where you feel like you're way out there in this quiet, solitudinal place, but in reality you're pretty close. And that's helpful for both perspectives because, like, on one hand, you have that, you know, that kind of feeling of being far out and, you know, having enough solitude, but also if there was an emergency or someone's having a bad time or just feeling sick or whatever you could paddle out in like an hour or less. You're pretty close to the front country pretty quickly. So it kind of provides both experiences of something that feels fun and remote, but also safe and secure.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and the other thing we talked about too is, even if somebody is looking for just that quick experience, it may not be that they have the time for a few days, it may just be a few hours. And in this particular section, what we talked about, when the Acousta Trail comes online and that won't be long, it'll be. You know, henderson County is moving a little bit quicker than Transylvania County, but when that's all said and done, you're talking about an opportunity where you can take one car, take your gear, float, have a bike, run your own shuttle, do this lap. I mean, there's a lot of things you're going to be able to do.
Speaker 2:That you might not be able to do if you were so, so remote, totally. Yeah, one of my favorite things to talk about, just in doing in general, is like a self-shuttle paddling trip, and what that means is, like you know, typically when you go boating, you have, you know, say you have two people and two cars. You're going to drive to the takeout, load everything into one car, drive to the put-in, paddle down the section, load everything into the second car and drive back out, which is fine, that's the normal way to do things in a problem.
Speaker 2:But there are certain locations where you have relaxed roadways or you have greenways or trails that kind of like more or less follow the river or provide a way to kind of get back to the put-in from where you take out or less follow the river or provide a way to kind of get back to the put in from where you take out and with that now you can do what I call the self shuttle, where maybe you drop all your stuff off at the put in, drive to the takeout, you know, in one car and then bicycle or jog or walk or whatever back to that put in and paddle back downstream and reverse it afterwards. So just kind of allows a you know for a you know a one car trip with your buddies, and especially if you're say you're coming in from further away and visiting this area.
Speaker 2:You're bringing one car versus two, or saving money, not having to hire a shuttle, but you also get some fun exercise. You get to ride your bike, you know, and see these other parts of the watershed from that perspective as well. But even if that's not for you, if you have two cars now, these kind of these trailheads that serve with the Acusa Trail and the river, you know, sharing access points and whatnot, become places where you can do both in one day While to your point. You know being 15 minutes from your house, like it just provides way more opportunity in this corridor for people that want to enjoy the river but also get some exercise at the same time.
Speaker 2:And one thing I'll mention that I forgot to before is that you know these camps that we maintain. You know to stay overnight at them. You know these campsites that we maintain, you know to stay overnight at them. You know we ask that you reserve them via our website and we have a campsite page on that website. There's a small fee that helps support our stewardship of them, you know. So those are a little more structured in terms of how they're booked and paid for.
Speaker 2:But you know our intention with these sites as well is for them to be kind of, you know, rest and stopover points along the water. Because you know, given that most of the French River watershed is privately owned in terms of its riparian areas, there aren't a whole lot of spots where you can kind of legally or safely hop out and have some lunch, like. There's a lot of, you know, shoals and beaches that are more or less fine, but these campsites give places assuming no one else is there already where you can pull off, have some lunch, go to the bathroom, relax for a little bit and kind of take some pressure off of other places as well. So there are overnight campsites, but there are also rest stops and stopovers as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great, Jack. One thing I don't think I've even asked you and I'm just kind of assuming this whole time, is the French Broad Paddle Trail. I mean, I know when it was established and then some of the funding that's come up, especially some of the funding that's come up especially this last year. Is this something that is sort of new for Mountain, not new? Is this something like a resurgence of effort with the paddle trail or is this something that just now you're kind of here focusing on it more full-time, that more effort, energy is going to put towards it? How does that all play in?
Speaker 2:and yeah, yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, so, going back a little bit, as I mentioned, you know, our organization, mountain True's French Broad Riverkeeper program, you know, started off with the French Broad Riverkeeper. Hartwell Carson is my coworker and longtime Mountain True staff. He basically runs all of our French Broad Riverkeeper programming. So you know, he kind of you know, leads all the things around water quality and recreation and advocacy and lobbying and things like that. We have another team member, anna Alsobrook, who is our watershed science and policy manager and she is kind of more hands-on in the details around water quality, sampling, enforcement, kind of getting more into the nitty-gritty of those issues and details.
Speaker 2:And then my role is focused on the paddle trail, specifically related to recreation and access and things like that. So I've been working with Mountain True off and on since 2017 in this role, now full time. But Anna and Hartwell have been there for much longer and historically the paddle trail was a focus of their job. But it was one of many things. They would work on the paddle trail in the summer trying to get these campsites together and clean the bathrooms and get the restrooms figured out and the signage and mapping and all that. But they'd also be working on water quality stuff. They'd also be leading events and lobbying all this kind of stuff and they just got overwhelmed with that and you know, somewhere along the way, you know, certain things had to take a backseat and the paddle trail often did because it just required less. You know, consistent hands-on work.
Speaker 2:But when the state, you know, through the Complete, the, the trails fund, decided to invest in state trails financially and from capacity wise, it made more sense at that point to kind of bring someone back on full-time okay turn this program specifically and that's kind of where my role kind of came back in to kind of really focus in on this, this program, specifically, because we have money to support it and because there's a lot of energy around it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So yeah, capitalize on it while you can, and and then all the other things, like we said a minute ago, just with the Acoustic Trail coming online and there's so many other resources just in this Henderson County, transylvania County, and then obviously we know that, you know, moving up into Tennessee there's more. But yeah, in those specific areas there's a lot of energy around this right now for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is so much energy and funding for that matter and just capacity for, you know, public outdoor recreation in Western North Carolina right now.
Speaker 2:It's so awesome.
Speaker 2:I know that the year of the trail campaign from last year for trails and the Great Trail State funding that came around and just like enthusiasm and support from our local tourism authorities and other partners, there's so much energy around this topic right now, which I think is amazing.
Speaker 2:But I'm also grateful that we have, you know, good people and good organizations ensuring that things happen in a way that are equitable and accessible, because, you know, oftentimes we think of these amenities, like trails and greenways and rivers and parks, as places that we all can enjoy, but we often kind of forget that sometimes, like, access isn't always necessarily equitable in terms of you know, what languages are available for people to read signage in? Are your boat ramps accessible with a capital A in terms of for people that have issues or challenges with mobility? Are they accessible for them? Are there opportunities for a wide variety of types of people in terms of costs associated with them them? So now we can get, with this extra capacity and funding and time and interest, we can go beyond just creating the thing, but create it in a way that's accessible for as many people as possible, in a way that's sustainable, long-term.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's huge. You know, the connection that I just made, in my brain too, with the whole movement last year. And then the funding is this idea of trails, kind of being for all and all, being literally all. But part of that too is just different ability levels and experience levels. And so you know somebody like yourself, for example, you know you're a classified boater, you'll pack raft. I mean, um, what do you call?
Speaker 2:it, is it pack?
Speaker 1:All right, so you're you're going to pack raft, you know you're going to do some some extreme, remote stuff, but yet I find somebody like yourself having equally joy in your canoe today just going down a flat section. So you just appreciate it like for what it is. And the really cool thing to me is that if you bring somebody in who doesn't have any of these experiences, it's really really safe. Now, hopping on section nine at flood is a different story. Hopping on these sections up here where you can float, feel comfortable on a sit on top, you know, an open boat, kayak, whatever it is it just allows the experience, the outdoor experience, getting people out there to experience all the benefits of it, and they don't have to be somebody who this is.
Speaker 1:You've done it all your life and you've got all the right gear, and I mean you want to have some gear and I want to talk about your website here in a minute because that really helps people. But that's one of the things that really strikes me, and this blue way is a perfect example of that as well. Right, so you have some of these multi-use trails, like the Fanta floor that might have steep elevations in some sections, but other sections it's just flat, it's asphalt, it might be a different surface, but in the blue ways it's the same. It's the exact same thing, and and and. This is a great opportunity for families. If you just got into it before, if you bought your, you know your sit on top at your local retailer and you just want a place to try it out and to be safe. This is it. I mean, this is really a great spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you raise a really good point too because, like a lot of our programming and work right now, given that we're working with funding for projects, has been kind of allocating and stewarding this funding to eligible places. So, like you know, replacing old, eroded stairs with a ramp, you know, or getting some new signage in here, or acquiring a property over here, things like that. But you know, what's important to think about is like we can, you know, build and facilitate sustainable and quality access, camping signage, whatever you know, for years and years. But if we don't create a community that's comfortable using them, then it just kind of continues to serve the privilege that have those means. So, to your point, even though these sections here in the headwaters that we're kind of focusing on for this conversation, given that we just floated one of them, is kind of categorically more accessible for folks, given that it's flat, calm, quiet water and doesn't have the same challenges associated with it as whitewater does, we still are trying to kind of build the community to actually access and use them. So we do that through a variety of measures between publicizing what we're working on and showing it off and working with partners that can facilitate that. But we're also trying to kind of work with our local outfitters that for their jobs and for their work they lead trips and they rent boats, and trying to make sure that they're kind of connecting people in a helpful way with these new things and vice versa. Oftentimes they're the ones helping us out think about where things could be improved and how they could be bettered based off what they know.
Speaker 2:But Mountain True also, you know, one of our the paddle trail program's focus, you know, part of our kind of our mission is to, you know, create and host events and opportunities for people to celebrate and learn about the river.
Speaker 2:So that can be in the form of a guided paddle trip where it's free or very low cost, where we have a fleet of boats, we have inflatable kayaks, we have canoes, you have a couple of sit-on-top kayaks, you have a raft or two. With that we can take people out on the river for little to no cost at all, depending on what their means are, and show off this stuff to them and say, hey, check this out, enjoy this, or encourage people to understand these opportunities in their backyard. And we focus on people that live here locally that might not otherwise have the means to do that or want to go on a float where they can learn from people working on these topics. So, along with creating and stewarding these resources or these opportunities and amenities, we also try to create opportunities and host opportunities for people to get out and experience them directly as well.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. Do you have anything in mind in terms of this section? You're such a smart guy. You're always kind of thinking about the next step. I don't think you really approach life with any just kind of you know, well, let's just kind of see how it goes. I mean, you're very thoughtful in the way you approach it 100%.
Speaker 2:A lot to go? Yeah, go for it, but no, yeah, so we do actually. So we were talking on the river earlier about some of the cool work that Made by Mountains is doing and the Outdoor Business Alliance and I won't get into the detail about what they are because it's a whole other conversation. They do awesome work and there's resources that, but about a year ago or maybe last spring or summer, they opened up a grant called the Outdoor Equity Fund. That funding source is really, at its core nature, focused on creating opportunities for people to get outside or enjoy the outdoors that might not otherwise have had the means to do so. So they're focusing in on BIPOC communities, but also communities that have challenges with mobility or financial means basically just reducing the barrier to getting outside, at its core focus here in Western North Carolina, and so we applied for a little bit of funding for that to support what I was just talking about, where we can be budgeted to hire a shuttle or rent some gear or buy some snacks or support our staff to take people out on the river to show off what we're talking about from, like you know, interpretation standpoint, but also to like communicate best practices in terms of how to paddle, you know how to, you know use these boats correctly, how to practice, leave no trace, you know kind of what flora and fauna they're seeing along the way. Not just like putting people in the river and saying, go for it, have fun. More just like, hey, let's go along for this together, talk about what we're seeing and kind of share this, share this world with you a little bit.
Speaker 2:And so last year we had four floats through that program, two of which with an organization called find outdoors. Yeah, they have a program called club exploradores and we partner with their staff to take out groups twice of students, youth, twice on the river, actually a very similar section that you and I did today, but a little bit longer, kind of showing off that section. We also partnered with El Centro of Transylvania County, which is like an afterschool programming group for Latino individuals, and then also did a float with Latinos Aventureros, which is a statewide group focused on facilitating outdoor recreation opportunities for Spanish speakers and a variety of other people, and we partnered with them for an awesome float last summer. This year we have two more floats, kind of in the queue and in the budget, working with BIPOC climbers. We're going to do, actually a whitewater section float down in Madison County where we're bringing out our staff and equipment, and then we're also working on another float with Find Outdoors, closer to Rosman, and so that just allows us.
Speaker 2:Our staff has boating experience, we have knowledge and guiding abilities and things like that. We've got boats, we've got all these other kind of in-kind resources, and when we pair that with a little bit of funding to cover the basic needs of a trip, we can just break down that barrier for cost. And we're by no means trying to undercut our local outfitters by any means. They're busy and happy and great. We're just trying to kind of take that edge off for certain communities that might otherwise be able to afford those services.
Speaker 1:Right, and it fits right in with your mission too. Yeah, so yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2:And it informs what we do. You know, like, right now we're kind of working on new signage. We just built a new website, we're working on a new app. Like, when we build those resources, we want to ensure that the language used and that the you know the way the symbology is done, you know, kind of is accessible to as many people as possible. And so, on one hand, we could just like go out and have interviews with people and kind of ask them like, you know, how should we do this or how should we do that?
Speaker 2:But what's way better, what we've learned and been shown is that it's easier to like go out on floats with people and talk about it in the situation Like, for example, like, if, like a fallen tree, if a river, if a tree is falling across the river and it's now, you know, a hazard, like, how do we communicate that in Spanish? Like you know, like I might speak Spanish a little bit, I might understand what that is in English, but directly translated might not make sense, and we can kind of work with people on the water to understand those you know issues and challenges, to communicate them adequately, depending on no matter who's reading it.
Speaker 1:I quickly, depending on no matter who's reading it, I love that. I love that and that was actually a really good segue, because the website itself is is great. You can not only find out and learn about the river itself what we talked about, the whole 140 miles but all the campsites. There's multiple campsites that are listed on there too. But one of the things to tie back into somebody who's just getting into this or experiencing this for the kind of the first time is a gear list, and so you really kind of help people understand and we'll have the link to this in the show notes. But I wonder if you can kind of just walk us through more kind of at a high level, 30,000 feet about the site map of the website and the resources that people can find on that website.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so we maintain a website for the French Broad Paddle Trail. It's frenchbroadpaddleorg. I think com and org both work, I think it both takes you to the same spot. And that's version two. I don't know exactly when the first website was created. I think it was sometime in 2010 or 12. That site was awesome, but it really kind of focused more on two things. It had a really good interactive web map that kind of like showed where things were. Then it had a really good page focused on the campsites that Mountain Tree maintained. There was a little bit of other pages around, you know, like other campsites and outfitters, but it kind of one of those things we you know with our team being stretched so thin at that time is that it didn't get the same level of maintenance and ongoing use that it could have. And so, you know, when we got some of this funding for paddle trail work in general, we really wanted to prioritize a good quality website that could be kind of like a good, just like comprehensive resource for river recreation on the French Broad in general. It also be a better system for managing reservations on our own campsites Full disclosure.
Speaker 2:The earlier website was a little bit of a challenge for us to kind of manage the backend of in terms of like, payments, reservations and all that kind of stuff, because we're not at our core, we're not like a lodging facility, you know, but like, but we do do that service. So we wanted to kind of have a resource that did that and it's also a little bit of a fundraiser for our organization as a nonprofit. But we also wanted to make it, you know, like a lodging reservation management platform built into it too. So FrenchRubPedalcomorg, the homepage, kind of just gets into some narrative around, kind of what the pedal trail is, who's involved, what Mountain True's role in that is, I would say overarchingly across the whole website. You know Mountain True kind of takes a little bit of a backseat. You know I want it to be. I want to show that we're aligned with the paddle trail and that what we do is a big part of it. But I don't want it to be like it's our thing. You know it kind of shows off as like this is this big picture community working on this stuff overall. So we have a listing of access points by name and by mile marker.
Speaker 2:We have a web map that shows off locations of those access points and campsites, mile markers, and one thing that I really like about the new site is that the web map that we have. It's based in Google Maps and we're able to add pins, little notes on their little waypoints that show if there's a fallen tree or if there's a construction project, if there's a dam. Obviously, things like dams are kind of permanent not permanent but stable, solid barriers or challenges or hazards but things like fallen trees, what we call river-wide woody debris or construction projects, things like that, those are helpful for people to know that they exist. But we can kind of also add and subtract them as they come up, so that web map does that.
Speaker 2:We've also got a gear list, like you mentioned. We've got suggested trips, we've got common questions on there, we've got a link going to gauges and flows for water levels and we're starting to kind of build out a few more bits of information on that, focused on, you know, like partnerships and supporters and kind of how people can get involved. Because on the homepage we have like a brief list of like upcoming events that we're hosting or other people are hosting that are relevant. But I want to have a bigger page about like how and where you can donate to different organizations Like what's the bigger picture look of stewardship events for volunteer work. You know what are other ways for the public to engage in this endeavor beyond just going for a float. You know how can you?
Speaker 2:get involved in a deeper level and so we're kind of getting into all that, but for now we're hopeful. It's kind of just like a comprehensive resource for people to trip, plan and go out. But we also have, you know, links to outfitters and retailers for to kind of send people off into more detailed bits and information if they need that.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's great. So yeah, I'm on here now and you have the section for people to just kind of engage. You have a learn section, Mountain, True Coffee Hour, Snorkel, the French Broad Paddling Film Festival tour screening that's coming up volunteering on all of these river cleanups, partnering with Headwater Outfitters for an annual French Broad cleanup.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's our homepage, which we have kind of like a top line just links out to those events that we're putting on, so that kind of changes as they kind of happen to rotate through it.
Speaker 2:But cool, I do that someone. That's what someone's seeing when they first come on the site is like you know what's going on first and foremost here locally, and now then kind of going into other information as they go and you also have a printed version of this map and I think you were explaining that you are kind of heading that up.
Speaker 1:You're going to spearhead, redoing, making it a little bit more, sort of pulling in your skills as a cartographer and that sort of thing, and that's a waterproof. It's a spiral bound kind of waterproof from what I saw today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we currently produce and print a print map the Riverkeeper Sky to the French Broad River. I think we're in its eighth edition, and that's been a partnership of Hartwell Carson, french Riverkeeper, and Chris Gibbs, who was the designer. He's done some of the fish water maps in the past and just kind of help us put that together. From like a design and production standpoint, that map's awesome. It's been great. We've kind of gotten to a point, though, where Chris is no longer really kind of working on that anymore. He's kind of retiring out and just kind of made sense to bring that whole project in house. So, yeah, so this year, the spring and summer, we're working on basically redoing that map from scratch. It'll be the same degree of content but presented a little bit differently, and so I think instead of that kind of spiral-down booklet style, it's going to be more of like a Pisgah Map Company style two-sided map, and we went back and forth on that in terms of the best way to do it.
Speaker 2:A lot of folks like that kind of booklet style one because they can kind of see where they are along it. A lot of folks like that kind of booklet style one because they can kind of see where they are along it. But a lot of people also were like man, it'd be really nice to like have all this detail presented equally for the whole section versus having to flip back and forth. Also, just production wise, it's a lot more efficient and cost effective to print that kind of like the foldable style versus the booklet style. It's just like it's becoming increasingly challenging to find places to print that style and just for a variety of reasons, it makes sense to go that way. But you know, no matter the format, it's going to be much more up to date, it's going to be much more detailed, it's going to be much kind of higher quality in terms of, like what it offers for the user in terms of a print map experience.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's fantastic and a broad sense for you when you see people enjoying this, when you see what's ahead, what is really exciting you right now specifically Jack Henderson.
Speaker 2:What's exciting you? I mean just for the last. I mean whether or not I've been involved for the last. You know 15 years or so that Hartwell and other people have been leading this like this is one of the first times we've had access to funding to get good projects done. In the past You've always kind of like, you know, piece things together here and there and done really good work, but it's been a little bit tighter and more challenging Right now.
Speaker 2:You know we've got funding for to do the work that we want to do in terms of improvements to access points, creation of signage, you know, creation of campsites, programming and things like that, and so I'm really excited about just actually having a work plan that's achievable. And so I mentioned about some of these projects here in Transylvania County. We're working to improve Pisgah Forest River access and create the new one at Everett Road. But we're also working on, I think, two other access point-based projects in Transylvania County, one at Lyons Mountain River access and one at Champion Park. We've got very similar projects happening in Madison County and a little bit in Buncombe County and I'm really excited just to like have the resources to kind of reimagine and re-envision some of these older access areas that you know, like when you think about trails, like you know when you think about building trail and you're physically building trail into a mountainside or a hillside or you know whatever the context is, but for the river is you're not building a trail, you know the river is there.
Speaker 2:You, the river is there, you're stewarding the trail, but our access points, our trailheads, are some of the most impactful places of accessing that trail overall. So I want to continue to invest in those sites to make sure that they're safe and usable and serving of a wide variety of needs. So having the means to get that work done is really exciting to me, and then also just seeing just our regional community investing more in the river holistically is what really excites me. We're a member of the French Red River Partnership, which is a group of all kinds of organizations working on water quality, working on riverside land protection, working on stormwater and climate change issues and things like that and also recreation. Being a part of this community and offering one specific but helpful niche to that is really exciting, because in the past it felt much more like we were doing a ton of work. Now we kind of have a little more help with that work and just feels a little more evenly distributed and like it'll go a lot further that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:So what have I not asked you? What are some other things that I have not brought out that you would just you walk away from here and you say, gosh, we should have covered that oh man, oh man, I know I think you covered all of it.
Speaker 2:I'd love just to maybe, just you know, kind of give a plug for use of the paddle trail from an overnight perspective. I think you know we were trying more and more to make to break down barriers to doing overnight trips. You know, I think a lot of people are like, oh man, like I've been backpacking or I've been car camping, but like doing an overnight river trip sounds just like you know, like it's so much work and it is some work. You know it's definitely different characteristics in terms of what you have. But, you know, if you've got the gear to do a basic camping trip from your car, then more or less you've got the means to do it on the river. And, yes, it does take certain skills and knowledge to be comfortable in a canoe or a kayak or a raft.
Speaker 2:But you know, like I want to encourage folks to, like you know, kind of think out and consider an overnight river trip on the french broad, you know, as a new activity that they're stepping up to or one that they've done elsewhere but not here, because it really is pretty fun and given the amount of access points and campus that we have now you can do it pretty quickly and easily. You could put on at five o'clock in the afternoon on a friday and take off at midday sat Saturday morning and make it as simple as that. Or go for a week and, just like I'm hopeful that our new website, you know, has tools help make that easier. But if your listeners are, you know, take a look at that and it's helpful, great. If it's not helpful, have them reach out. We have a contact page on there and we're looking to make that resource better and better and, you know, welcome impact from the community or input from the community to make it better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good. You know two things off from that. We talked today when we were paddling about when you go out and you experience one of these overnight trips and it doesn't matter if it's this river or whatever river, but when you do that, you become in tune to it a little bit more. As you're spending, you know, a couple hours on the river, or 24 hours, you know, sleeping and waking up, cooking breakfast, coffee, all that kind of stuff. There's a connection to the river that I don't know how you'd actually put it into words, but you just are. I mean, if you care and if you have half of a heart, yeah, you're connected to that asset. But the other thing for me is that you become an ambassador too. So when you start talking about, yes, we did this, or you know you could elevate Mountain True, if somebody doesn't know about Mountain, True, you can elevate the Great Trail State. If somebody doesn't know about that, you become more of an advocate and an ambassador and a protector of those spaces, I think.
Speaker 2:That's spot on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was one of the really big origins of, you know, launching the paddle trail.
Speaker 2:You know it existed as a state trail back in the early 2000s and 2010s, but one of you know, hartwell and the other partners' goals was to make people aware of the river in terms of a recreational asset, but also to like get people on the water to like see some of these challenges and issues we were dealing with in terms of water quality or polluters and things like that, you know, not as a way to put people in harm's way, but just to have them see what's happening on the river and see the potential for it to get better and better and better, and I would say that's largely been a success.
Speaker 2:There have been several sections of river that never used to be considered common recreational floats. People would do certain sections for certain reasons for a while back, but now much more of the river, if not all of it, is considered popular and accessible. So with that becomes people becoming more interested and knowledgeable of all the variety of sections along the river, thus oftentimes caring more and more about those sections as well. So it's kind of just evenly distributed passion and energy for conservation and protection across the water body as a whole, which obviously serves our work, you know, given that we do a lot of that work as a nonprofit overall, but also you know those of our partners and just the community in general, everyone wins when we have a clean river, you know, and I think it's important that the paddle trail continues to be a resource for that, but also as a way just to celebrate the things that have happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, boy, that is a perfect bow to tie on this episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's good. Well, I can't thank you enough for the trip today. I know you and I have since we did our first interview with Pisgah Map Company. We had a chance to connect at the Outdoor Economy Conference, which is where this whole idea came from, and then finally being able to do it. I just really thank you for the time today Love, being back on the water, just kind of love, just kind of floating.
Speaker 1:And for me I've driven by these sections a lot, but just being on the river I had never paddled these sections before and it does take on this whole nother feel and look and experience. And it's not just after heavy rain, the milky brown, french broad, it's just, it's pretty, I mean, it's beautiful, the wildlife beginning to come out and you know some of the structures that are there that just allow you to feel connected to the land. And then again, more importantly, just the health benefits that come from doing just what we just did. But, yeah, well, I hope that people will do it. I'm excited for you said Poplar Bend. Right, that's what we want to name this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'm 85% sure at this point that's going to be the name.
Speaker 2:Okay, we're working out the final details of the lease with Conserving Carolina. I think that's what's going to get baked in. So currently on our website we have a campsites page. On that page there's kind of all the campsites you know ours and others included. There's also kind of like a focus area within that specifically. So if you look now you won't see that, but probably in a month or so you'll see that as an option to reserve and stay at or visit from the river.
Speaker 1:All right, and not to add another thing onto your long list of busy stuff for the summer, we need to do a little joint deal between exploration some of the exploration, local listeners and get out with the French Broad Paddle Trail and make a day of it and just yeah, kind of expose people to something that maybe they haven't seen before. Like I hadn't seen before. Sure, That'd be fun.
Speaker 2:That'd be awesome. Yeah, and if you're looking for an action item for your listeners, for the time being I would just say go to frenchbobpaddlecomorg and on there, just on the first thing, on the homepage there's a list of upcoming events. Those are events that we put on, you know, as things come up, and those are opportunities to get out, you know, and get on the river or by the river and steward it or enjoy it. But also keep an eye on some of our partners pages. You know Conserving Carolina has a lot of events going on. Obviously, you can take a float with a lot of our outfitters in the area. There's a wide variety of ways to engage with the river, whether you're paddling on it or working beside it.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it well, jack. Thanks for the experience today. Thanks for again stopping in here talking a little bit more about it. I know our conversation won't end the episode will but thanks so much for your time today, bud. Likewise, thank you.
Speaker 1:Just as the fun was getting started, we arrived at our takeout. I hope you enjoyed exploring the beauty of North Carolina's river scapes and learning about the efforts to protect and provide top-notch recreation on the French Broad Paddle Trail. As we wrap up this adventure, remember that the French Broad River is more than just a body of water. It's a symbol of unity and community passion. From the dedicated work of so many to the initiatives making the river accessible to all, it's clear that this natural wonder belongs to everyone, whether you're a local resident or a visitor passing through. We encourage you to experience the serenity and beauty of the French Broad firsthand.
Speaker 1:That's going to do it for this episode. I truly hope you enjoyed it and, if you did, would you please consider leaving a review wherever you download your podcasts? It truly does help us reach more people. Be sure to subscribe to Exploration Local so you'll be one of the first to know when new episodes drop. Join me on Instagram and Facebook and drop me a note at mike at explorationlocalcom, if you ever have a suggestion for a future episode or if you just want to say hi, until next time. I encourage you to wander far, but explore local.
Speaker 1:Thank you With your hopes that I will stand With your hopes that I will stand.