Exploration Local
Exploration Local
Beyond the Ride: MTB Skills Factory's Josh Whitmore on Coaching, Bike Parks, and Rider Development
In this episode we’re going to take a deep dive into the world of mountain biking with Josh Whitmore, owner and head coach of Mountain Bike Skills Factory. Hear Josh's inspiring journey from his roots in Brevard, NC, to becoming a leading mountain bike instructor with over 25 years of coaching experience and a professional racing career.
Josh explores the evolution of trails, the rise of bike parks like Kanuga, Chestnut Mountain, and Old Fort...and why certified instruction is essential for all riders. Learn expert tips on body positioning, common rider mistakes, and how to find the right coach. Plus, get insights into the craftsmanship behind high-quality mountain bikes and the comprehensive approach at Mountain Bike Skills Factory.
Whether you’re a beginner or seasoned rider, this episode is packed with tips and inspiration to take your riding to the next level!
Mike Andress
Host, Exploration Local
828-551-9065
mike@explorationlocal.com
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In this episode, we're going to take a deep dive into the world of mountain biking with Josh Whitmore, owner and head coach of Mountain Bike Skills Factory. We're going to hear Josh's inspiring journey from his roots in Brevard, north Carolina, to becoming a leading mountain bike instructor with over 25 years of coaching experience and a professional racing career. Josh explores the evolution of trails, the rise of bike parks like Canuga, chestnut Mountain and Old Fort, and why certified instruction is essential for all riders, and we're going to learn expert tips on body positioning, common rider mistakes and how to find the right coach. Plus, we're going to get insights into the craftsmanship behind high-quality mountain bikes and the comprehensive approach to Mountain Bike Skills Factory. Whether you're a beginner or seasoned rider, this episode is packed with tips and inspiration to take your ride and mine to the next level. I'll see you on the other side.
Speaker 1:You're listening to Exploration Local, a podcast designed to explore and celebrate the people and places that make the Blue Ridge and Southern Appalachian Mountains special and unique. My name is Mike Andrus, the host of Exploration Local. Join us on our journey to explore these mountains and discover how they fuel the spirit of adventure. We encourage you to wander far, but explore local. Let's go. I'm excited to have Josh Whitmore with me today. He is the owner and head coach of Mountain Bike Skills Factory. Josh, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Excellent. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:One of the things that's really cool is that you are a member of the PMBIA, which I just learned is the Professional Mountain Bike Instructors Association. You do this not only here in Western North Carolina, but you do it all across the country and you're the most active instructor in all the country for the PMBIA. That's pretty big stuff, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So in addition to my company that runs in this region, the Mountain Bike Skills Factory, I also work for the Professional Mountain Bike Instructor Association to teach the certification courses for other mountain bike instructors. So the PMBIA is the professional certifying body for mountain bike instructors and so I do a lot of staff training for other skills schools and guide services and summer camps and bike parks and that sort of thing. So offer a lot of those courses here, my home zone, but then I travel quite a lot around the United States to teach those as well.
Speaker 1:So that's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:Let's go back in time a little bit. And when did you catch this passion for mountain biking, and when did it just sort of begin to take on its own trajectory?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really started from riding my bike to school. Honestly, is that? Uh, so I had a single dad and he was worked at the DuPont plant, the x-ray film plant when it would be before it was a state forest. There was an actual like x-ray film plant there. So he was a shift worker and, you know, worked rotating shifts and so I was kind of a feral child a lot of the time.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, I'd started riding a bike to school, just so I could get to school on my own time or come back from swim practice or whatever else I was doing. And so that was kind of where I started riding and there were trails in Pisgah, you know. So I grew up in Brevard and there were trails right there. So, yeah, it was. It was kind of a natural thing to start exploring on the bike as a 12 or 13 year old and start to, you know, my own time, to just like, well, where else can I go on this thing? And it's like, oh, I can go into the forest and I can ride, there's trails I can ride on. So that's kind of how it all got started for me.
Speaker 1:Cool. And then, at what point in your life did you really kind of figure out that man? Helping people, coaching people, teaching people it's a thing that you are passionate about, and the reason I asked that question like how far back it goes is because in my experience, there are people that don't just sort of turn on the switch and all of a sudden they go oh, I'm going to go coach. There's like something in their life has kind of built up to that point or something that they realize they just like helping people, helping instruction, connecting dots with people, learning new skills, all that kind of stuff. I don't want to project that on you, so maybe that doesn't exist.
Speaker 2:No, no, it does, it does, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I guess, uh, when I was a teenager and I started working at summer camps, so there was a lot of summer camps in the area and obviously, and so then back then, um, mountain biking was a kind of a new activity to the to summer camps. You know, mountain, uh, summer camps are starting to get bikes and have that as a program for the kids and there wasn't a whole lot of prior experience with that, and so basically it was the kind of thing where, like, they figured out that I had rode mountain bikes and then like, naturally, like, oh, that means you're in charge of the mountain bike program. And then I was also had a local kid scholarship to Brevard college. So I was the part of the first graduating class of the wilderness leadership, leadership and Experiential Education degree program at Brevard College when it was transitioning way back then it was transitioning from a two-year junior college to a four-year program. So I was the first of the graduating bachelor degrees from Brevard College the first year, proud to say I was valedictorian.
Speaker 2:There were two of us. I beat out the other guy by a few grade points, you know, both of us kind of struggled through but we made it. But anyway. So that wilderness leadership program was. I'm not sure exactly why I was interested in that. I think maybe because of summer camp world and it's like, oh, this seems like a neat thing to be able to. Outdoor education in general seemed like something I was interested in, although somewhere along in the lines I started out with general education classes there and then I had there was this outdoor ed class and I didn't really understand what it was. But I saw that they went backpacking, rock climbing, whitewater kayaking and some other things like all in one class and I was like that sounds like a cool class.
Speaker 1:That's for me, yeah, so I'm going to do that.
Speaker 2:And then it was about halfway through the semester that I figured out that, like wait, wait, wait, wait, you're trying to teach me how to teach other people to do these things. Like no, I don't know about that, I just want to do it.
Speaker 1:I would just rather do the things like.
Speaker 2:I don't know about this teaching it thing, so I felt like I kind of got hoodwinked into it but it but it turned out to fit and uh and worked out pretty well and so that's kind of where I got started with it. So I guess I've been I mean been teaching mountain bike lessons really for I mean 20, more than 25 years now. It's been quite a long time. That hasn't been full-time. All that time, you know, worked at summer camps and was teaching some there and then and then I was a professional mountain bike racer after that. So I went into mountain bike racing and a lot of different kinds of bicycle racing, but I'm a professional on the mountain bike.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:And then I always coached a little bit on the side, so I would always do a little bit of lessons here and there. And then as I got further in that career, I did more coaching on the side. And then when I eventually got too old to make any money racing anymore, then coaching kind of tapered off and racing tapered off, coaching took off and then. So now I've been coaching full time since 2015 or 2016 or something like that.
Speaker 1:So that's cool, that's so, that's so fantastic. I love it when you could finish with a sport, but the sport's not really finished with you yet and it's your time to sort of give back and kind of help the next generation sort of come along.
Speaker 2:I just really had this conversation recently with someone who's like well, you know, like, do you ever see yourself doing something that's not bikes? And I was kind of like, well, you know, my whole life, you know, it's like I'm sort of like built into being an expert in one thing. I could start over. But you know, I would have to start over, you know, I would have to like start from nothing, you know. So it's sort of like I don't feel like I'm trapped in it. I don't feel like I'm trapped in it, I love doing it, but it's also kind of like all of my background kind of leading to where I am now.
Speaker 1:That's great. So 25 years of coaching, and I'm thinking that's probably about the time maybe a little bit before that when I started actually mountain biking and getting out and there wasn't a whole lot of this instruction. Back then it really was hey, if you find a group of people, that they have a common interest and if you can pedal without your chain falling off, let's just go kind of explore and start doing the things right. And so I'm amazed at that that there was instruction that goes back that far. I guess I am and I'm not, but I mean it makes sense, especially if you're in this area or any of the areas where you have such great natural assets too.
Speaker 1:But I'm really curious to know from your perspective, like over the last let's call it two decades, how have you seen the popularity of mountain biking expand and grow? And you know, were there parts of that where it was slow and then all of a sudden there's been a spike. I mean it seems like COVID has not has a whole lot to do with it, but during COVID that was a pretty big time where people were getting outside, but there's an explosion right now of trail building and people getting into the industries and bikes for all price points and all those sorts of things. So how have you seen it from your perspective, because you've been into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And then I guess, growing up in this area in Brevard and being a part of you in Western North Carolina and most of my life, I'd say that you know it really kind of dovetails nicely with the story of transition of the area from, you know, mountain extraction industries to, you know, recreation tourism. You know it happened to be that there were already some resources here that made it easy for recreation tourism to expand. You know. So we had national forests you know Pisgah National Forest and Nantahala National Forest and you know that were there was existing trail systems and that sort of thing. You know I'm old enough to remember when mountain biking first became a thing that we started riding mountain bikes on trails in Pisgah and you know we would be on a bike somewhere like way out in the forest and hikers would. We'd come across hikers and they would look at us and be like how did you get that thing here? You rode a bicycle here and you know we'd be like it's a mountain bike. They'd be like that's the wildest thing I've ever seen.
Speaker 1:Too funny.
Speaker 2:You know. So, back then there weren't trails that were open to bikes or closed to bikes, there were just trails. And then, you know, we started riding bikes on them and you know, eventually, you know the, with more and more riding happening, you know, then certain trails became, uh, okay, to ride bikes, and other ones they, you know, they made hiking only, or horses, you know, whatever it was.
Speaker 2:So they kind of like separated some of those out. But so I would say that that you know we had a nice advantage of the of the location as far as the mountains, and then you know all existing national forest and trails and that sort of thing that made all of that kind of easy. But yeah, pretty early on even actually, this Western North Carolina became a kind of a mountain bike Mecca and that there were because there are already existing trails. Then people were riding bikes on and they're quite good for bikes that people came from all over to ride them, and so it became known in that area. I should find this article. There was an article in like a bicycle magazine or something from the early nineties that ranked uh, avery Creek downhill or Avery Creek trail in Pisgah national forest is one of the top three downhills in the country, or something like this.
Speaker 2:It was like early nineties, you know early, kind of more early days of of mountain biking. But you know, it kind of held that prestige just because it was already here.
Speaker 1:It kind of held that prestige just because it was already here. Yeah Well, we talked about that a little bit before we started recording of just how much this area is a mecca, and I was sharing some stories about people who have lived here. They've moved out west and obviously the thought of everything out there is bigger and better, but there's people that say no, with a mountain bike there's so much more concentrated trails that we can ride here and they really kind of prefer a lot of that single track that's in this whole region. That's characteristic of this region.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'd say so. There's a lot of variety here as well, and we can ride year-round. It never gets real hot in the summer and then in the winter it might snow a little bit, but wait a couple days and you're back riding on the trails again. So we tend to be able to ride year round. And then we kind of have these this size mountain that is good for hiking and for mountain biking in the way that they're. They're big enough to make it exciting and difficult and challenging, but not so big that they're that there's unused terrain, you know you can think about like you know the biggest, the biggest mountains in Colorado or wherever.
Speaker 2:you know there's there's not mountain bike trails on the highest, biggest mountains in Colorado. You know there's kind of there's sort of a zone of elevation and steepness and stuff that makes sense for mountain bikes and you know that's kind of describes all of our mountains here honestly. So we have really good terrain in that way and you know weather and you know all that sort of thing. So it it makes makes for a perfect storm in that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So let's talk a little bit before we get into the instruction part, cause we really want to focus on that too. Just the trails in general. So we know that there's a lot of them and they're all accessible and we have within a day's drive so many, I mean from New York, from, you know, from the Keys to New York. I mean people can be here, within a day to enjoy.
Speaker 1:But you also talk about the variety of the different trails for all different levels. And then I'd love to touch just a little bit on your perspective of seeing, really, at least in our region, Western North Carolina the explosion of mountain bike trails that are being made out there too.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess, as you know, it all started with, you know, the trails that were in the national forest, the existing trails that were there, which were really kind of co-opted from like logging, extraction routes, and you know we're talking about like old logging roads and old you know, logging trails that would go between hunting or logging camps and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But you think about, like you know, the Brevard zone of Pisgah and then over at Solly and Nantahala National Forest were, you know, some of the hotbeds of those existing trails, and then you know we started getting some other, you know, like DuPont State Forest, that came on board and then they, some of them, like a lot of the trails they were purpose built to be multi-use for mountain bikes, hikers and horses, and so that was early days of professional trail building and trail design to be able to accommodate those different trail users on the same surfaces, which Pisgah never really had. We just kind of adopted the trails that were already there in Pisgah. So how to make the trails sustainable? We live in a place that gets an incredible amount of rain, so and how do you build a trail that lasts, you know, with that amount of rain and that amount of traffic and all that sort of thing? So that that was interesting.
Speaker 2:And then you know, with the boom of recreation, tourism in general and then just the sport of mountain biking, then you know other sort of commercial endeavors, like private property that people build trails on and then charge a fee to ride them, or shuttle services that you know shuttle you to the top of the mountain so you don't have to pedal all the way up there, and that sort of thing. So we've got, you know, several new bike parks in the area, like you know Canuga Bike Park and Rock Creek Bike Park. And with the amount of people that do ride in this area in general, even the National Forest is trying to expand the amount of trails. So you think about all the new trails that are being developed around Old Fort and the.
Speaker 2:G5 Collective and all of that stuff is sort of concentrated to try to be able to build additional terrain so that to relieve some of the overuse pressure in maybe the more popular bits. With all that said, yeah, it seems like every year here there's a new trail system that's open. You think about like Fire Mountain Trail System in Cherokee or Chestnut Trail System in Chestnut Mountain in Bicanton, and some of those are free and municipal owned, city owned, state owned. Some of them, like Canuga or Rock Creek, are private property, commercial things. There's more of that coming too. There's going to be a new one open in Old Fort called the Watershed Bike Park. That's going to be probably still another year out or so, but they're already building trails there.
Speaker 1:That's so great.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of trails and there are a lot of people that look to this place as a mecca, that look to this place as a Mecca. So it only stands to reason that instruction, and really good quality, certified instruction, is taking off as well. And that's what you're doing, that's the niche that you're serving in this industry. Well, that's part of it, I guess. The other part is, like we've talked about earlier traveling around teaching other instructors. But let's talk a little bit about your company, let's kind of camp out and focus there, and let's talk a little bit about the rise in popularity of the mountain biking instruction. But maybe even before we get there, just like why? Like what's the why behind it? And also we've talked about it. But I'd love for you to kind of unpack. Hey, it's kind of a wide spectrum.
Speaker 1:It's for everybody who is mountain biking. And well, I'm going to let you finish that, so I don't want to kind of give that piece away.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, well, you think about those listeners that are already mountain bikers. Or, if you're thinking about getting into mountain biking, think about how did you learn how to ride? Most of the time, it's that you got a bike, you started riding it and started figuring it out just by kind of doing it trial and error. Yeah, you might've got some tips from some friends.
Speaker 2:These days, you know folks like there's some video and tutorials and some stuff out there and content that is sometimes helpful, but, you know, very rarely did we when we started learning how to ride mountain bikes, did we folks out there.
Speaker 2:Very rarely did they, you know, start with, like start with a lesson, or have any kind of structured learning process of how to acquire these skills, of how to, how to maneuver this complicated thing on complicated terrain. What ends up happening is that people kind of figure it out and human beings are pretty intuitive with, you know, with understanding body movement and trying to balance, and some folks learn it quicker than others. I'd say that a lot of people learn sort of bad habits as well, like they kind of like get decent, they can handle decently difficult terrain in spite of their skills in some ways, and then so you know it's just sort of like been that process for most people of just kind of trial and error figuring it out on their own. But you know you think about also. You know mountain biking has kind of a reputation of being like extreme or dangerous or but it doesn't have to be that way, you know you can. Certainly it's sensationalized in social media and stuff to see. You know the Friday fails and the you know the crashes, the Friday fails and the the uh, you know the, the crashes and that sort
Speaker 2:of thing. You know that that gets eyeballs on it, but, um, being a mountain biker doesn't mean you have to crash and hurt yourself. You know you can, you can ride safely and and do well. So, yeah, I'd say in in general it, uh it kind of struck a chord with me in the way that, in trying to be a professional racer and trying with this outdoor education background, I was really trying to understand how to how to ride a bike in a more conscious way and so that I could improve it.
Speaker 2:So my story with that real quick, was that as a racer I was a little bit bigger, more muscular than than I would say like your world cup kind of like cross country racer, and a little little tiny whippets that go uphill real fast. I weighed a bit more than that, and so in order to compensate for that disadvantage, I had to be really good with everything else. And so then skills and driving the bike and making up time and complicated terrain and on the downhills was how I like maintain to be competitive, and so I spent a lot of time in my personal journey trying to understand how to drive a bike better and faster so that I could be a better racer, and so then teaching other people, connecting that to my outdoor education background you know, the methodology of how to teach that to other people really struck a chord with folks. It would be like a lot of comments would be like I sort of do that and I kind of knew that, but I didn't really understand, like really even the conscious parts of how you position your body to go over a drop or around a turn, or and they certainly didn't have like a um, most people don't have a conscious process of being able to scan ahead and see terrain that's happening or that's coming and then translate that subconsciously into these are the body movements I need to make in order to drive the bike through that terrain.
Speaker 2:Most people, the way that it happens, is that they just kind of ride into the terrain and see what happens, and then they they end up being like this kind of reactive rider, like a reactionary process, where they're just trying to react to whatever's happening. And so the analogy I use is kind of like rather than driving the car, they're holding onto the bumper and getting drug along by the car down the road. They're just kind of reacting to whatever's happening and through the whole process of skills instruction, then what we're really trying to do is try to move people towards being a more conscious driver of the bike, where they're kind of anticipating movements and then are making the movements happen as they're needed, rather than being a reactionary rider man.
Speaker 1:You just described the former is me the movements happen like as they're needed, rather than being a reactionary rider man.
Speaker 2:So you just described the first.
Speaker 1:The former is me.
Speaker 1:It's grabbing the bumper and just kind of holding on.
Speaker 1:I was sharing that with you earlier and that very much explains kind of my last 20 plus years of just being a reactionary, you know, rider and kind of hanging on and and it's been really inconsistent for me.
Speaker 1:But you know, I think I shared with you also that somebody, the first connection that I had with driving, you know through something, is just understanding my speed, my gear and all of that in my downhill to sort of carry into an uphill, and that was huge. That was just that one little tip was enough to sort of be a game changer for me, feeling like I had sort of improved a little bit. And it really didn't have anything to do with you know, how fast I wanted to go or how extreme I wanted to be or any of that kind of stuff. It was just this is just now getting into this and I'd like her to kind of learn the right way, but also just the efficiency and being able to be out there and getting off the trail and not feeling like you're beat to death you know, and that's the way I feel a lot of times when I get off.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, I guess. And so folks that are just getting started riding or more beginner riders, get quite a lot out of it, just to be able to feel more confident, more capable and just more safe and stable I guess in those kind of like priorities, just to have the ability to be able to proactively see things and then do the right stuff, to not get thrown off the bike or that sort of stuff, be able to tackle different trains. So at the beginning it helps people to access more terrain because they're just more capable pretty quickly. And then I guess another phenotype of people that work with quite a lot are what I would call the intermediate plateau.
Speaker 2:So the intermediate plateau are folks that have been riding for a little while. They've kind of been figuring it out on their own, they've been riding lots of different trails and that sort of thing, but then they they kind of reach this plateau and ability where they're not really getting better anymore and so they're riding the same trails the same way and with the same results and they they see the other people going faster or they see people doing other types of features they don't feel confident doing or and they don't know quite how to like bridge that gap of like how do I, how do I continue to improve? I've reached this plateau now and so those type of riders really benefit from, from lessons to help like connect those dots, to like help break through that plateau, to continue to improve.
Speaker 1:Very cool.
Speaker 2:Access more terrain, new features be maybe ride faster if they want be able to. Yeah, just feel like that they're more in control and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:You know, it's amazing that your wilderness education, background and experiences really comes through with what you're saying right there I think, and then because that's transferable, right.
Speaker 1:So, like you said, if it's snow skiing, if it's rock climbing, if it's I mean you name it, you fill in the blank. All those principles are kind of all the same, and so I could definitely see how and why you have so many positive reviews from some of your customers that are out there. In fact, one person I wrote this down.
Speaker 1:I thought this was really really good. They said, josh, make sure to understand your current skills, learning style and goals so you always get the instruction you need explained in a way that makes the most sense to you. I thought that was pretty profound when I read it. I mean, I read through many of them, but that one really kind of stuck out because it's like you're understanding the person, what it is they're trying to get to, what challenges them perhaps, where are they now, what's their current state, and you want them to move into a flow state, no matter what the stage is. Because you can be I'm thinking you can have flow state as a beginner, because I do For sure Coming down some of these trails, just hooping and hollering, just grin from ear to ear, but then, as you go through, those same things are evident as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and that speaks well to the art of being a good coach in the mountain bike world is that the evolution of being a mountain bike coach is that when you first get started, you learn some curriculum, common curriculum, and you learn how to deliver a set script.
Speaker 2:So you learn how to deliver this curriculum and then as you get better and better at it like, let's say, that you'd work more private lessons with folks, where you work on one-on-one with a client and you can sort of then branch out from the general script and so then it becomes a lot more customizable, where you're trying to understand the background and the current state of that client and then trying to use the knowledge and the curriculum that you have to apply to that client so that they like reach their goals in the most efficient way possible.
Speaker 2:So then I think that's what really keeps me in the flow state of being a coach is that it's it's highly adaptable to each person. And if I was in the state of like um, of just delivering the same curriculum over and over again, then that would get kind of mundane and boring. But for me, the challenge of like working with each person individually and understanding you know what do they need right now, as their next step is is like a is something that just turns into a flow state. For me, that is a creative endeavor, requires connection with the client, understanding of, like you know, kind of mastery of all of the skills and then what terrain you have to work with and how to maximize all that stuff together. So that's what keeps me in it, I think, in the in the long run.
Speaker 1:How do you pick the perfect mountain bike coach for you? How do people, based on what they just heard and knowing that there's a difference, how do they go about trying to find the right one?
Speaker 2:Maybe just start with some basic professionalism questions of you know, do they have a business, commercial liability insurance? Do they have permission or permits to be able to teach in the places that they're teaching? You know there's it's a little bit of a wild west sometimes that people are, you know, exchanging services for money and don't even have a commercial operating permit and Pisgah National Forest, you know so or don't have commercial liability insurance, or you know those kinds of things. So just some of those basic, those kinds of basic questions are a good starting point. Beyond that, I think it's you can dive a little bit into background and experience of the instructor and don't be afraid to ask how long have you been doing this? How did you learn how, working with a company that had some kind of methodology or more experienced instructors in place that you could mentor and apprentice under?
Speaker 2:The best coaches that I've seen develop have come up through the ranks under kind of like an apprenticeship type of arrangement where they are seeking both outside professional development but then also exist in a place where they can learn from other more experienced coaches. Or did they start it themselves? And if they haven't been doing it for very long, if they're figuring it out on their own. They're essentially kind of like figuring out how to be a coach kind of trial and error with you as the guinea pig. So it may not be as efficient, maybe. Okay, it may not be as efficient or as high quality as someone who has come through some kind of a program of training where they are more, where they get more highly experienced apprenticeship or mentorship. There are certification programs out there, like the PMBIA is the main one and it's the kind of the worldwide certification body for mountain bike constructors, and so that's pretty universally accepted as the different levels. There's four different levels of certification. So depending on what level you are, you're sort of like your scope of practice for teaching specific things changes throughout that. But that's also a good marker of just the dedication that the coach has to their own professional development, that they have sought out training and certification from other sources.
Speaker 2:And then I think as well, just you know, do they work with riders that are like you. So, for instance, you know there are a lot of great mountain bike coaches that are pretty new to mountain bike coaching. They are fantastic at working with specific populations, say, like more beginner populations in general. Maybe they're really good. Their experience thus far has been with group clinics where they're delivering more of a scripted curriculum rather than like a custom on the fly kind of like curriculum with a private lesson. You know, and there's a great need for those type of coaches that are pretty new to it but are delivering high quality curriculum.
Speaker 2:You know, for beginners, you know, I'd say in general, like universally, like someone just getting started mountain biking, you know, there's a few things that they, that we kind of teach all of them and it's incredibly helpful. And then the more advanced the rider gets, the more nuanced the instruction has to be to to be able to help that rider. So newer coaches can be great, you know, if they, you know, have the proper amount of like training and certification and mentorship to be able to do that. But you know, but yeah, so do they. So that's a good question to ask. You know, do they regularly work with, with riders like you or the rider that you want to become? You know they're like I I refer some riders to other coaches that are riders that I, that I don't that there are other coaches that may be better at working with that specific type of rider or the or for their specific goals.
Speaker 2:So, for instance, like you know I I teach regular mountain bikers how to go over jumps and do jumps and drops and that sort of thing and do basic tricks in the air, uh, like tail whips or tables and stuff like that. But like if you're in a dirt jump park on a dirt jump bike or a BMX bike, like that's kind of outside of my scope of expertise and like I, you know I don't ride those types of bikes and doing, you know, backflips and three sixties and like those that kind of jumping. Like you know, it's like I can teach you know mountain bikes how to jump all day, but like, yeah, get on a dirt jump park then yeah, that's kind of out to my. So if someone comes wanting something like that, then I'm happily, you know, referring them to someone who does specialize in that.
Speaker 2:So, that's an example of that, of that kind of thing. So and then the last thing I think would just be like, do you jive with their personality? You know there's it takes a connection between the teacher and the student and any kind of learning environment in order to have really effective learning happen, and so that learning environment is really, you know, do you think that you would enjoy hanging out with them for a few hours? And sometimes you just don't jive with people, and that's okay too. Like you know, maybe that's like some folks, you just jive more with others. You may even consider the gender of the person that you're working with. That there's in general. It's kind of funny.
Speaker 2:Like, one of the things I say a lot of times is that if you're strongly consider taking a lesson from a female mountain bike instructor and why is that? Is because, like, it's harder for a female in general to show up in the mountain bike space and be taken seriously as like being good at teaching you something. So the ones that have made it, that are doing it regularly, are really good at it, because they have to show up and demand that respect through excellence and quality right away If they're. If they're not very good at it, then unfortunately the you know the I mean it's getting better in the world in general. But you know the you know the in general, like in a male dominated sport, then it's it's getting better in the world in general, but in general, like in a male-dominated sport, then it's harder for them to get respect. So anyway, those are a few little pieces that I typically tell people when they're looking for mountain bike coaches.
Speaker 1:Love it, love it. Well, in a world today, hard pivot. But in a world today of so much online video YouTube, you name it we can get instruction out there. There's a lot of people have new, you know, youtube channels and I'm sure that there's some good behind it. But what's the difference between, like, how would you draw the demarcation between what you're going to see online and really kind of getting that firsthand, first-person experience of a qualified, certified coach?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question Because, yeah, like you said, there's a lot of good content, short form content and social media and you know longer form content in. You know, like YouTube, and even content that you can purchase. You know that you can video tutorials that you can purchase and I would say that some of that is actually quite good and I'd say that there's a lot of it that's really garbage. That's like good entertainment but it's not, doesn't serve a good function of teaching you really much. So, some of the common themes of those things video content as a teaching tool. One of the common things I see is that they're often quite good about breaking down, like an advanced maneuver, into its elemental pieces and helping you understand what are the pieces in order to execute a bunny hop, or to what are all the what are all here, understand the pieces that go into jumping a mountain bike. So that's that's fantastic to, and it's helpful for a rider to be able to like consciously understand what those pieces are.
Speaker 2:I call those show and tell videos because they, uh, they're kind of like hey, here's this, this like nifty advanced thing that we're doing, and here I'm going to break it down into a bunch of pieces. Now you do it, okay, well. So what those videos lack is the. Is the okay, well, how do you take a rider who can't do those pieces? How do they acquire the foundation and the skills and the movement patterns in order to be able to get to where they can start to execute some of those things? What pieces, steps do they need to put in place before that to get to there? So you know, what kinds of, yeah, mechanics do they need to learn or fix, or skills that they need to learn before they even get there? So so oftentimes that kind of video can show and tell.
Speaker 2:Video content is missing that, like any, any progression of development, it's like it's like a great to like tell you what it is, but it's not like how to get there. I guess another thing that video content lacks is any kind of customization of, uh, even video content that has a progression of like hey, do these drills in this order? Is that for some folks that may be too boring for them, or for other folks it may move too quickly? So everyone is coming from different places and you have a human-centric approach to each. Human has a different learning curve and it might be good at some parts of it, but not good at other parts of it, and so that learning progression really needs to be custom for each person, so that it's it doesn't progress too quickly or it's not it's challenging enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not challenging enough. That's another, I guess, detriment of that. And then all video content lasts any kind of like analysis and feedback. So a really good coach is really trained and in tune with watching you execute what your assignment is and then providing you feedback with you know, both the things you're doing correctly and then how to error detection and correction, like how to correct some of the errors that you're having.
Speaker 2:And it's difficult to do on your own because your own proprioception might be that like, hey, I'm doing this thing, watch like I'm doing it great, right, and so a classic one that is, like you know, like an assignment of like, uh, hinging at the waist, getting your your your shoulders closer to the bars, like bending your elbows more to get your lower your chest and getting close to the bars. You know people would be like look, coach, I'm getting really low, look how close to the handlebar I am. You know I am, and they've only moved like an inch or two. And you show them a video of themselves and it's like, well, how low did you think you were? And you'd be like man, my face was almost getting ready to hit the stem. It was real close, coach.
Speaker 2:And then they see a video of them doing it and they really only moved like an inch from their full upright position. And so that's that difference in kind of proprioception that's hard sometimes to detect yourself, that a trained eye can see, and good coaches can prioritize those errors where it's like you know the rider's just not quite getting it, they're not quite getting it, it's not quite clicking for them. Well, maybe it's just as something as simple as like the angle of their feet on the pedals or or some something with their body movement that that sort of unlocks the ability to do what they're doing. You know, the, the maybe, just oftentimes it's all. It's some kind of like simple foundation thing that is off just enough to prevent them from having success at the what they're trying to do. But they would never figure that out on their own if you didn't, if there wasn't a coach there to kind of like provide that feedback to help out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, would never figured that out on their own if you didn't, if there wasn't a coach there to kind of like provide that feedback to help out. Yeah, you know that tracks back to something we talked about a little bit earlier, just in terms of you know, you had the people that are hanging on, then you had the people that are trying to learn to drive their bike. I think I said that right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So in in that vein, what are some of those things Like? What are some of the basics? There may be somebody listening in here that says that really sounds good for me. I'm very interested. Either I live here or I'm going to be traveling here. I need to look up, Josh. So what are some of those kind of basic, fundamental things that they should be getting and that you are looking at, some of those common errors that you're trying to correct with them?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a couple of things that everybody can work on and give you a peel back the curtain a little bit to some of the stuff that we are commonly teaching. I'd say one of the biggest things is a basic body position of trying to be what we call centered and then being able to use your vertical range of motion, so like farther away from the bike or closer to the bike strategically. So let me explain this to folks that, uh so the most common error that I see of all level riders is when folks are like cruising across the parking lot standing up. They often look pretty good and they're like. You know their feet are both equidistant from the ground. We call it level pedals. And you know they're like quite upright. You know arms and knees just slightly bent the chin's kind of over the stem we call that neutral position, you know that. And knees just slightly bent the chin's kind of over the stem. We call that a neutral position. You know that's like a restful position. It's kind of like standing in line at the bank.
Speaker 1:You could do that all day long.
Speaker 2:But then, okay, great, Now we're, we're like approaching a rock garden and we want to be more stable, to be able, or have more movement, to be able to like absorb the bike as it chunders over top of those rocks. Well, chunders over top of those rocks, Well, what the mistake that most people make is that they they mostly just bend their knees and get kind of far back on the bike. Their arms stay kind of straight and what that does is it puts them out of center, so it puts them, their weight is biased towards the rear wheel and then they've got their legs bent quite a lot. So the outcome of that is that the front wheel has less pressure on it, Front tire has less pressure on it, Makes it worse for steering, Makes it worse for braking, Makes it worse for kind of driving the bike. You know, you kind of get more into that, like you're just hanging on getting drug along, and the reason why people end up like that is that it's a defensive position. They don't want to go over the bars. For you know, over the front of the bars and you know, especially like older bikes to the uh, smaller wheels and the wheel base is real short and in order to ride those bikes and not go over the front of the handlebars, you had to. You had to ride kind of far back. You know like keep your weight back. You know that classic, they're quite hard. You know a lot more difficult to go over the bars. And one of the ways you know like you don't go over the bars like just getting lower and closer to the bike. You know it's sort of like a pyramid, bent your knees a lot and then your arms are quite straight and your chest is kind of high and you're kind of far back.
Speaker 2:I said that looks kind of like a goalkeeper and getting ready to take a penalty kick, Whereas the position that we would like people to be in is looks more like a speed skater. So basically, like the steps to get into that are to like bend forward at the waist, bend your elbows, lower your chest towards the bars, chin over stem still, but that's a, you know, level pedals. So you kind of go through that like hinging forward first until you're looking a little bit more like a speed skater and then, if you need to get even lower, then you start bending your knees, lower your whole hips and shoulders kind of at the same time towards the bike, so that that, like it's a difference in how you get close to the bike. Being more close to the bike makes it more stable.
Speaker 2:You know that kind of like that tip over pyramid thing and then being able to be kind of like you think about total range of motion vertically from all as high as you can go, like as tall as you can be on a bike, to as close as you can be to the bike, and you think about that from like zero to a hundred, you know somewhere in the middle there. And if you kind of, if you're in that position, then you can, the bike can both move towards you. Like if you're going over top of a rock, the bike can kind of absorb to you, but then if you're getting getting ready to go through a hole or something like that, you can also feed the bike away from you. In general, like by having that that kind of centered position, kind of think about like a cup of tea, that's like being balanced on your head, and you're going down a really complicated trail and you're trying not to spill that tea. That's like balanced on top of your head.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, how would you do that? Well, it's kind of like well, your head and your upper body would kind of like move in a nice smooth line and then the bike would constantly be dancing under you. You know, being closer and farther away, and kind of the bike would move to the terrain, but your body center of mass would be moving in kind of a more smooth version of that.
Speaker 1:I can see why you're such a great coach. Yeah, I mean I'm making connections and all these things. This is good.
Speaker 2:Good, good. So I would say that, even like real advanced riders were working on nuances of that kind of center position, working on nuances of that kind of center position, and one, one physical cue that you can have that you're in that position is that if you're carrying your weight in your feet, so you think about, like your touch points of the bike, two feet and two hands when you're standing up, um, that you want to be supporting your body weight and your feet, and then your hands are, are on the grips and are. You know it's a light grip, but you're not like pushing or pulling on the bars in that position. You're mostly like supporting your weight in your feet, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So we have like heavy feet and light hands, yeah yeah, and that's a pretty good indication that you're centered over that. If you get real far back, then what ends up happening is that you end up pulling on your fingers.
Speaker 1:You feel pulling on your fingers rather than being like a more light grip kind of situation. Man, I relate to all that. Everything we've done is just described. All my hanging on, that's all I've been doing, yeah right.
Speaker 2:So being more of in that driver position. It's kind of like a more aggressive type of stance, but you can turn that on and off. In places where the trail is smooth and straight you just go back to standing up nice and tall like a giraffe, up nice and tall like a giraffe, and then you know places where you need to be ready. You kind of get more into that kind of ready or attack position for obstacles or for corners or places. You need to be more, more, um, more stable so you can move and intentionally in that range you know, vertically to be able to. So so I'll work with that, with riders.
Speaker 2:You know the real beginner riders were like introducing those things. You know from the, from the very beginning. You know like, hey, on this, like grass field, you know like let's practice those positions and then you know just to figure out how to do them without a lot of complicated terrain. And then, like advanced riders, you know we're we're trying to figure out how to like massage those positions more strategically for specific obstacles and that sort of thing. So it's, you know, wide variety using. But that's a real common place to start.
Speaker 1:How do you pick the starting place for somebody? So, beginners, I would imagine that'd be a lot easier. But if you had an intermediate that comes in, how do you start that whole process of trying to uncover and discover what they? You know what current stage they're at and where they want to go to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really a good multi-part process. It really starts with the pre-screening before the booking. So then there's some intake questions. When people book a lesson, that gather a little bit of background of riding and we make some determination of their skill ability just based on some of those intake questions. And that at least gets me to when we're making the bookings to pair them with the correct coach in the correct terrain. Second step is that when they show up then we do kind of an interview and so then we talk more in depth about what their background is, what their goals are, you know what type of riding they've done in the past and what kind of hangups they have with with their riding or where they want to go with it. You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:We always include a skills assessment as well. So there's an on-bike skills assessment and oftentimes like kind of disguised as a warm-up. You know it's like hey, we're going to go ride and get our bodies moving and that sort of thing. But you know, with a few minutes of riding with somebody on a trail I can have a pretty good idea of what they. You know where we need to start with stuff. So connecting all the dots of that kind of helps determine where we start.
Speaker 2:Connecting all the dots of that kind of helps determine where we start. And then we always kind of are a bit conservative about where we start to, because the for even for advanced level riders, if they haven't had any previous lessons, then it may just serve to get on the same, the same level, the same terminology on some basic things and they may move through it really quickly. But you know, as we started in that process, if they, if they need more attention in that specific thing, then we'll just like work on that for a bit before we move on. But you know, a real advanced rider is going to you just tell them what to do and they do it and then you just move on, whereas a beginner rider is going to need a lot more steps, a lot more like development on that thing, to be able to be reliable doing it, be consistent doing it. So those are all the steps to figure out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very methodical in your approach. Again, I think it goes back to your education background and, yeah, you definitely pull all that stuff through. So, before we go on to figuring out how people can book a lesson with you or your team, how do you vet your own instructors and what is that onboarding process with them? Because obviously you do a great job, and Because obviously you do a great job and I'm sure you do a great job hiring your staff, but how do you bring them along as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really enjoy that process.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I do a lot of staff training, you know, not only for my company, but then, you know, obviously for other companies as well, and so that's a passion of mine to be able to train other instructors.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, my team, aaron, in general, like companies that are doing it well, there's kind of like an apprenticeship and mentorship sort of model.
Speaker 2:So we have general staff trainings where we're learning or teaching like specific things, try to develop their knowledge, and then the apprenticeship model looks kind of like when they first started do a lot of shadowing of me or of other or other instructors, so they kind of like watch other instructors quite a lot, and then they they move into this thing where they're co-teaching, so with, like, you know, you have a task and you're going to teach it, and I have a task and I'm going to teach it, and maybe I'm in charge of the total model and kind of like what we're doing next.
Speaker 2:But I kind of give you pieces to teach and then we work, you know, towards like, hey, you're going to teach the whole lesson and be in charge of the whole thing and I'm going to watch and give feedback. So that kind of like progression of from shadowing through co-teaching to being shadowed and getting feedback is like is a strong way to to build instructors abilities pretty quick and then they've been through the certifications and all that kind of external professional development and I encourage them to go work other for other places too.
Speaker 2:So not just my perspective, but other other people's expertise as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's healthy. How do people find out about booking lessons with you, booking lessons with your team? How do we go about doing that?
Speaker 2:The website's really easy Mountain Bike Skills. It's just mtbskillsfactorycom. We're also on socials on that same handle, mtbskillsfactory, so we're easy to find on that stuff. The booking stuff it should make sense. There's live availability on the website so folks can see a calendar and see what's available and pick a time and a day and book it. Certainly we're great at helping with questions too. They can email us or call us or text us or in all the different ways, and we can certainly help out with any of those questions. We have an email list that we call the factory team, but basically what that allows us to do is that when we publish our calendar of group clinics, so we have both private lessons that are available all the time and then we have kind of set group clinics and so when the group clinic calendar goes out, we send it out to the factory team first email list and allow those folks to sign up for it before it kind of goes live to the public.
Speaker 1:Cool.
Speaker 2:That's also a kind of a newsletter also of like additional coaches, tips and things like that. And then we have some partner discounts with companies that we partner with that we give those pass along those kind of like appreciation discount codes to our factory team.
Speaker 1:So I love that man. I just signed up for that last night actually.
Speaker 1:Oh sweet, yeah, yeah. So I'm looking forward to staying connected in that way. Well, man, I've never coached mountain biking, but I have coached other sports and just I'm amazed at your approach to it. I think it's so solid and the concept of great players don't necessarily translate into great coaches, is true, but it's so great when a great player or a great rider like yourself does translate into a coach that's going to give back and they understand the cues, they understand it firsthand, experientially, and they are trying to teach to that level. And I think how did you say it? Your humanistic approach or your human centric approach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of a that's a huge concept, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, josh, thanks so much, man for coming in here and unpacking all of that. I'm so glad that we didn't have a whole lot of calls before this, because I'm finding out a lot of this information firsthand, which is so, so good man.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But you're doing great things and it's a service that's definitely needed. We've made the analogy. We've kind of compared the skiing with the mountain biking and some of the mishaps that happen with that and how much somebody, if they just get that little bit of a baseline at the beginning, it's going to really kind of set them on a good path to hopefully enjoy something like skiing, whitewater, kayaking, mountain biking, whatever it may be, for a very long time, and I would imagine that's part of your hope is that they would get into it. Progress through the sport. It's something they can be doing for as long as they can walk, they can be riding, yeah Well, yeah, that's the mission really get more people on bikes and to help them.
Speaker 2:You know, experience that in a in a positive way, I mean. Yeah, I mean you know mountain biking has given me so much in my life and you know, and it's, it's a super fun thing to do and, yeah, I'd love to be able to share that with folks that they can. They can do it safely and they can do it well and they can learn a lot and experience that same joy and then all the things that they, the process that they apply towards learning how to be a better mountain biker, is good learning for the rest of their life. They can apply those same lessons to their work or their family or whatever else. So there's that transference piece too, that we're using recreation for joy, and then the process of learning. Recreation is like a way to learn ourselves and to learn the processes that we can use to make the rest of our lives better too.
Speaker 1:So that's all part of the mission.
Speaker 2:Pleasure to be here. I appreciate you having me and the opportunity to help educate folks on, kind of like, what mountain bike instruction is all about and that it's and it's a real thing and that there's a lot of folks doing a really good job with it. So that's something I could consider.
Speaker 1:So thanks a ton Right on, josh. Thank you, bud. Thanks for joining us on this incredible ride with Josh Whitmore. We hope his passion for mountain biking and expert coaching inspired you to take your skills to the next level. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned rider, the tips and insights Josh shared can make a huge difference in your performance and enjoyment on the trails. If you're looking to continue your mountain bike journey, be sure to check out mtbskillsfactorycom for world-class instruction that caters to all levels. And remember investing in proper coaching and foundational skills will pay off for years to come.
Speaker 1:Well, that's going to do it for this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please subscribe, rate and leave us a review. Your feedback helps us to continue to bring you stories of how these mountains and the outdoors influence and shape our lives. Join me on Instagram and Facebook and drop me a line at mike at explorationlocalcom if you ever have a suggestion for a future episode. Until next time, keep exploring, stay safe and, as always, happy trails. And remember I encourage you to wander far, but explore local. Thank you.