Exploration Local
Come journey with us as we explore and highlight the people and places that make the Blue Ridge and Southern Appalachian Mountains special and unique. We explore the towns, trails, rivers, scenic byways, businesses, and people that fuel the life & adventurous spirit in these mountains. Listen in on this relaxed conversational style podcast as host Mike Andress interviews Authors, Business Owners, Photographers, Athletes, Adventurers, Travelers and Friends who have a deep connection to the outdoors and directly influence the culture of the Blue Ridge. We’ll even explore the many ways nature & the outdoors can positivity influence our health and well being.
Exploration Local
Recovering Western North Carolina: Resilience, Responsible Travel, and the Path to Restoration
Join us for an insightful and inspiring journey into the heart of Western North Carolina as we explore the region's remarkable resilience following the devastation of Hurricane Helene. In this episode, we speak with Amanda Baker from Outdoor NC, Brian Strong, Director of North Carolina State Parks, and biologist Doug Besler from the NC Wildlife Commission, as they share their expertise on the unprecedented flooding, park closures, and ongoing recovery efforts.
Discover how state parks are working to restore themselves to their natural beauty and how travelers can play a vital role in this recovery through responsible travel and stewardship. Learn about the impact on local wildlife, including the strategies for restocking trout and the broader implications for the region’s ecosystems. Doug Besler offers a fascinating look at the adaptability of nature, while also highlighting the economic significance of recreational fishing for the local community.
Through this conversation, we uncover the powerful connection between nature, well-being, and community collaboration. Patience and collective action are essential as we navigate these transformative challenges, and we provide listeners with resources to stay informed and engaged in supporting the recovery and revitalization of Western North Carolina.
Tune in to learn how you can help this cherished region heal and thrive!
Explore What's Open in Western NC
Visit NC
Outdoor NC
North Carolina Wildlife Commission
North Carolina State Parks
Outdoor NC Stewardship
Western NC Recovery Non-Profits
BeLoved Asheville
Samaritan's Purse
828 Strong
MountainTrue
Greater Good
MANNA Foodbank
Mike Andress
Host, Exploration Local
828-551-9065
mike@explorationlocal.com
Podcast Website
Facebook
Instagram: explorationlocal
This was a catastrophic event that you know. No one in living memory living here has ever seen anything like this. You know we're talking a once in 5,000 plus years storm. You know some areas had over 30 inches of rain within a 24 hour period, so you know the amount of water that moved through these systems was has never been recorded.
Speaker 2:Those words from Doug Bessler, a biologist with the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission, perfectly capture the scale of the devastation caused by Hurricane Helene. In today's episode we're diving into the immediate aftermath of this historic storm and the unprecedented challenges it posed to North Carolina's western region. From catastrophic flooding to widespread closures, many areas of western North Carolina were essentially shut down. But as waters began to recede, questions arose. Which parts of the region were still safe to visit? How could outdoor enthusiasts, travelers and residents make sense of the destruction?
Speaker 2:We're kicking off today's conversation with Amanda Baker. She's the partner marketing manager for Outdoor NC. Amanda and her team played a really critical role in helping the public stay informed about where to safely explore in the wake of the storm. She'll walk us through how they work to get up-to-date information out to travelers and to keep outdoor recreation alive during a time of crisis. Then we'll hear from Brian Strong he's the director of North Carolina State Parks about the immediate impact the storm had on our beloved state parks and the efforts underway to get those essential spaces back up and running. And finally, we'll dive into the impact on North Carolina's wildlife, with insights from Doug Bessler on how ecosystems and aquatic life are adapting to the devastation caused by the storm.
Speaker 2:So whether you're an outdoor lover, a concerned resident or simply curious about the recovery process in one of North Carolina's most cherished regions, this episode has you covered. Let's jump in. As the recovery process began following Hurricane Helene, one of the immediate challenges was getting the word out to travelers about which areas were safe to visit in western North Carolina and which ones were still dealing with the aftermath of the storm, and which ones were still dealing with the aftermath of the storm. That's where organizations like Outdoor NC and the state's tourism resources played a critical role in keeping visitors informed. Amanda, you and your team have worked hard to make sure people can plan ahead and stay updated on conditions in affected areas, and I'm wondering if you could walk us through the best resources travelers can use to check road conditions, find out about open parks and outdoor spaces and to make sure they're heading to places that are ready for visitors.
Speaker 3:Before traveling to the affected areas of western North Carolina, we really encourage people to plan ahead and prepare, checking local official government and park websites for information about conditions and impacted routes or even closures, and this includes details about roads, state parks, trails, campsites and other outdoor spaces. Staying informed from those local officials is crucial for the visit. If they are considering a visit to Western North Carolina, it's really important to stay informed. Visiting places like visitnccom and our travel advisory page, which will also include an interactive map that provides additional information, or consulting drivencgov for any road closures and then really reaching out to that local community and local businesses to see if they're open and welcoming visitors back. They can also get real-time information and updates from the North Carolina Department of Public Safety, but the visitnccom travel advisory page is really a great start.
Speaker 2:How do we prepare to come back to some of these damaged areas?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, as Western North Carolina works to rebuild, practicing active stewardship is going to matter all the more. So be mindful of how your present might impact local resources, especially in communities that are rebuilding and recovering, and then understanding and considering what a meaningful difference that can make within a destination during these challenging times. Even most parts of western North Carolina are accessible to guests now, and practicing the seven outdoor and sea leave no trace principles will continue to be crucial for those going outdoors and exploring, and by observing those and giving those extra vulnerable ecosystems the space and the time that they need to heal, free from avoidable human impacts, is really going to make a difference. We want to make sure that we continue to be good stewards of those natural spaces in the communities so that they can grow back and grow back stronger.
Speaker 2:I wonder if we can kind of camp out there just a little bit longer and talk about what does active stewardship look like in practice?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know it can mean a lot of different things, but really it brings together community allies and it's finding that balance between the resident's quality of life and a visitor experience. It's looking at connecting industry operations and balancing that economic return with social responsibility and environmental conservation and the local heritage and nature. With respect to those assets, it really is about being one and like a local within your own destination or when visiting a destination.
Speaker 2:What I'm hearing in there is like just being sensitive, you know, to all the things that make up that particular area. Is that kind of part of this act of stewardship?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think something that is often considered like during peak travel seasons and how the trails and certain spaces become maybe overly loved. They're popular, people want to go and visit them, while there's so many other areas in which they could go and visit. So a dispersing of their visitation to some of those lesser known areas and the impact on resources right now are that some of those places are closed. So we don't want to go to those places that are closed. We want to make sure we're visiting places that are open and welcoming that visitation, as well as balancing it with our community and understanding how our impact in those communities can have a great, make a great difference. For example, you know they some of these places didn't have the visitation that they typically have in the fall, so visiting now can help them kind of continue, keep their people employed and giving back in that way. So it's a little bit of a giving back to the places that give to you and provide those memories and experiences without a pull on any local resources.
Speaker 2:That is a phenomenal way to look at this, and so two things one, visiting some of these places in seasons that you might not otherwise, but one of the things you talked about just a few minutes ago was the coastal parts and the central part of our state, the Piedmont region. Maybe take this opportunity to travel to another part of North Carolina that you might not these times of seasons.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Adding. A new place to discover could be something to think about. The coastal is often considered a place that people visit during the summer months, and fall and winter are some of my favorite times to visit our coastal destinations. You got the beach to yourself, big houses that are more affordable for renting this time of year as well. So, yeah, there's opportunity there too. And when we look at the Piedmont region of our state, going and exploring some of those trails and experiencing what that might be like, often, you know our mountains are considered the places to go to for hiking and, believe it or not, we have some great trails in the central region of our state as well as along the coast. It's different environments. We're incredibly lucky to have all of these different ecosystems within our own state that we can get out and explore.
Speaker 2:So, no matter where you go in the state of North Carolina, be it the mountains, piedmont or the coastal regions, you all are really heavily focused on doing this with proper stewardship and following leave no trace principles. And I know that active stewardship is a part of that and we kind of talked about that a little bit. But I love to just for our listeners, just a little reminder of what those leave no trace principles are and how do we apply those here traveling in North Carolina.
Speaker 3:It's great, thinking about it from the mountain perspective, to commit to those restored resilient natural spaces across the state and brushing up on our outdoor and sea leave no trace principles.
Speaker 3:Those were originally established with leave no trace in order to look at our different ecosystems across the state and come up with some statewide messaging that makes sense. We do know that nine out of 10 people who visit our outdoors are not informed out of leave no Trace. But a person trained in Leave no Trace is five times more likely to protect nature and often educate others on the Leave no Trace principles. And we worked with Leave no Trace to establish principles that are unique to our ecosystem here in North Carolina and across the state. So the plan ahead and prepare, stick to trails and overnight right leave it as you find it, trash your trash, share our trails, keeping wildlife wild, being careful with fire, but really getting down to the why of these and how they are so important to our natural environment. And this messaging works across our state. So brushing up on those outdoor and see leave no trace principles can really help restore and create a resilient natural space across the state of North Carolina, but especially in Western North Carolina as it continues to heal.
Speaker 2:I absolutely love that, and you've actually created ways that listeners and people travelers to the area can get involved, and you have this concept called Join the Movement Initiative. I'd love to kind of tap into that a little bit and then talk about how listeners and people traveling to this area can get involved to join this movement.
Speaker 3:This is a call to action to not just experience North Carolina, but to embrace North Carolina and to help preserve our outdoor places for future generations. And they can do so by visiting outdoornccom and by practicing the Outdoor NC principles.
Speaker 2:Oh, love that, Love that. There's an easy button join the movement. Find all the information that you want, plus, on your website. There's so much other information. There's trail town guides, there's information about all different types of activities that you can and would want to do here in North Carolina, specific to each of these regions. So, yeah, find out where you want to go and then, and then let's, let's join in and do that responsibly as a, as fellow travelers on this mission here. Okay, one last thing that you would love for listeners to remember about responsible travel in North Carolina.
Speaker 3:Well, I think the most important thing that folks can do is plan ahead and be prepared. That's the number one thing. But collectively, understanding that your visitation has an impact and that it can be a positive impact, and learning about the outdoor and sea principles can help you be an active steward in our destination.
Speaker 2:So, Amanda, when will we get you back up here into these mountains to enjoy them? I know you've been gallivanting on the coast and in the Piedmont, but any future travel plans that you have for the mountains?
Speaker 3:Well coming out there. We're actually holding some outdoor and sea workshops where we'll be educating some of our destination partners about the outdoor and sea principles and how to be a destination steward and working on our trail towns and our outdoor and sea trail town program. But I'm really looking forward to giving back to the community and engaging with arts and different things within the communities to help make that impact that I know so many of them need right now following the storm.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you brought that up. I'd love to maybe talk about that a little bit more, about some of the ways that you think people can really help support, not just coming to these places you mentioned the arts, but what are some of the other ways that people can really kind of give back? When the storm first happened, everybody wanted to help the supplies. That was the first thing, for sure, and it was so wonderful. It was amazing actually to see all of that moving and everybody kind of heeding that call to action. But right now, what are some other practical things and some tangible things that visitors can do to really support other than just kind of spending their dollars?
Speaker 3:That's a really great question. Of course, supporting by purchasing items is one way, with ShopWNCcom, which promotes communities and towns that are open to visitors or have storefronts where you can show your support by purchasing from those businesses, also like supporting local visiting a brewery or a restaurant or a hotel. They really do need the support in that way too. Those are a couple of the ways that I can think of. I know they're working on a lot of different things when it comes to assessing trails and what that looks like from a volunteerism side of things. So stay tuned for our Outdoor NC Evergreen newsletter for opportunities, as well as our social media page for other ideas or things along those lines.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great, Amanda. Thanks for sharing that. And also I just want to thank you as just a resident here in North Carolina and then specifically up here in Western North Carolina, everything that you all did early after Helene hit, just really trying to educate the public. Thank you for that work that you all have done. You're continuing to do, not just here in Western North Carolina, amanda, but all across this great state.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. It certainly is a team effort all of the different agencies, all of our local partners and the community itself. We're here to support recovery today and tomorrow and the future.
Speaker 2:Next we're going to dive deeper into the impact of the storm on one of the most treasured parts of the state our state parks. As many of you know, north Carolina state parks are critical to outdoor experiences across the state, particularly in western North Carolina, from hiking and camping to simply enjoying the natural beauty of the region. These parks play a huge role in both the local economy and the quality of life for residents and visitors alike. So it's no surprise that when Hurricane Helene hit, these parks were significantly impacted. To help us understand the immediate response and the recovery efforts, we're joined by Brian Strong, the Director of North Carolina State Parks. Brian, thank you for joining us today. I know that the storm's impact was felt deeply across the western part of the state and, as the head of the state park system, I can only imagine how challenging this time was for your team. Can you walk us through how these parks were initially affected and what steps you took and your team took in those first critical days after the storm?
Speaker 4:you took and your team took in those first critical days after the storm. So one of the first things that we did as an agency is we closed 13 of our western parks, and so we did that for a number of reasons. We wanted to make sure that all of our staff were safe first of all, take care of themselves so that was kind of our first priority. And secondly, we were heavily involved in response to the storm. Initially.
Speaker 4:We have staff in Raleigh who went out and managed and worked in the emergency operations center in Raleigh, so we were a part of that process. We have over 200 law enforcement staff within the division and so they were out on five-day deployments almost immediately after the storm. So they were helping, they were doing health checks, they were working at a various number of things, including hospitals, places where they were taking in individuals who were stranded by the storm. They were providing security for that. A lot of roads were closed, bridges, they were manning those areas. So did a lot of work initially on that and just responding to that, and so that really was our focus for several several weeks after the storm.
Speaker 2:What was that transition like going from that first phase into your recovery phase and what became the priorities during that recovery phase?
Speaker 4:Great question and asking a lot of questions. Okay, is it safe? Is it safe for our staff to get out there, to be in these areas where you know there could be fallen trees, where they're going to have to use chainsaws, heavy equipment? Are the resources there if somebody got injured? So those were kind of the first questions we were asking. So we were in touch with the local EMS, we were talking to the hospitals, we were talking to emergency management, all of those, to make sure those areas were safe to do, even to get out.
Speaker 4:And the first phase of that is the assessment chase. So our staff were just going out to the park and assessing all of our facilities, all of our buildings, all of our trails, all of our roads, all of that areas. And that really was the first step in this is to really to get those assessments down and to really understand, you know, what damages have occurred along that way. And so we closed I think I've said that before 13 of our manned units in the western part of the state. So we were doing these assessments there and just taking inventory of what's there, what are the challenges and I think from there getting a better feel for where we're at in the process. You know which ones. You know. Hey, there's a lot of damage here. Some of these parks we couldn't get into because of infrastructure challenges. So that was kind of the first phase that we were into as we started to transition more from response to recovery was in that assessment phase.
Speaker 2:You really opened my eyes here, though, because I didn't realize just the breadth that.
Speaker 2:You know, when I'm thinking state parks, I'm just thinking, well, you have your parcel of land and that's kind of what you're concerned with, but it sounds like it's much, much more from the very beginning, of everybody kind of stepping in people coming from the eastern part of the state, and, as a resident of North Carolina, first of all, thank you for all the work that you all have done. There was a lot of joy when you started to see these state parks that begin to open, because, you know, from our perspective it was just going to be indefinite, and I'm sure that you know you all were working so hard, and so you know, around the clock, really, I guess, with 12 on, 12 off shifts, that you really moved quickly. Was that move quicker than you anticipated, brian, or was that? Hey, we have this, even though we've none of us have experienced a storm quite like this. But did it kind of move along that continuum as you thought it would, and did you think that you would be opened back up as quickly as you did?
Speaker 4:We were very fortunate, I think, as an organization, that we didn't really have the damage. We were very fortunate, I think, as an organization, that we didn't really have the damage, the structure damage that a lot of other places had. You know, we had minimum. I mean there are some parts where they were very, very impacted, but for a lot of it it was a combination of trees down, damage to trails, damage to some roads, but they were mainly sort of back roads. So from our standpoint we were very fortunate.
Speaker 4:It is great to see how I mean for me to see how the state came together. So that was really great and we got a ton of help. So when we were able to get to that next phase, we had National Guard at the parks, we had Sawyer crews. These guys were amazing. They were like smokejumpers from all over the country, experts in chainsaw work. They came out and they did work that it would have taken us months to do in just a week or so, because they're sort of the best of the best and they were doing complicated cutting and really opening up those trails in a really quick way. So I I agree with you, I waited several weeks until this sort of.
Speaker 4:I was careful not to not to get to the west because there was a travel ban until that was lifted and it was mainly emergency response that was doing there. I waited for that, but even after that there was a ton of people DOT and other agencies that have been doing so much work in the western part of the state and it was encouraging to see that. And I look at it this way, we've done probably maybe 70% of the work. The next 30% is going to be that longer. What I tell people if this isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. It's going to take a long time to get to that next 30% of the park units.
Speaker 2:That's completely understandable and especially, I would imagine all the efforts, all the assets, everything coming in quickly and then from now, you know, then that's sort of the big sweep approach, and then now I guess it's really the recovery pieces that are going to take a long time for everybody. But you're talking about state parks, they're full of trees and they're full of places that people go Water, lakes, rivers, trees, cliffs, you know all these sorts of things and so, yeah, they have to be safe in a normal situation. But you know, you throw a storm of a lifetime in there and I'm sure that recovery takes even longer. So it makes sense that that last 30% is going to take even longer.
Speaker 4:And that 30% is really infrastructure. It's bridges, it's roads, it's that type of facilities that have to be designed, that you have to go in there and you have to get the you know, the construction drawings done and because streams to move, because bridges aren't, you know that might not be the best place to put the bridge back. A lot of that work and effort has to go into that. So that's kind of the length of it and accessing some of these facilities that we have to wait till those roads are done. The the other piece that's important here is we want to be respectful some of these facilities that we have to wait till those roads are done. The other piece that's important here is we want to be respectful to some of these communities and we understand that. You know where we can we want to open back up.
Speaker 4:We know parks are an essential part of the communities. People love them, they're passionate about it. Most of our parks are local parks, that there is a local community that comes out there almost every day and hikes and bikes and swims and enjoys these communities and we want to really support those communities. But we understand there are other communities that they're really hurting. They've lost their infrastructure. They're not ready for people to come back and I think we're trying to be careful to balance those two. We know we're an economic driver. We know people travel to certain parts of the state to go to parks and we understand that that's important. But we also want to be respectful to those local communities.
Speaker 2:That is the important piece, and I'm wondering if you can maybe talk a little bit about some of those sensitive areas where you really are. I know you're being mindful of all the communities over here, but maybe we can touch on a little bit of the parks that are not open quite yet and some of the communities that are around them. I'd love to hear more about that.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I think for us, the ones that we know especially are going to take some long-term, are Chimney Rock State Park, mount Mitchell State Park, south Mountain State Park. So obviously the town of Chimney Rock and Lake Lure had really catastrophic impacts. Small businesses were literally washed away. We had a maintenance shop down in the town of Chimney Rock. That's totally gone, wow. And then the bridge that connects the town of Chimney Rock to the park is no longer there. So those are the kind of things that we know that's a long term. You know, when I was out there looking at it, duke Energy had to actually helicopter in two power poles because they could not get to the site back there. So they had to helicopter two new poles in and then put those in the ground to reconnect electricity to Chimney Rock State Park.
Speaker 4:Mount Mitchell is a challenging one because of the parkway. We had some damage there. We had some road lossage in the park. We had just done a major renovation on a restaurant up there. We lost the roof on the restaurant. So we have roof damage and some water damage and then we have some of damage and some water damage and then you know, we have some of the roads that washed out there. So that's going to take some time.
Speaker 4:But the problem is even accessing those areas and that's going to be sort of this long-term challenge and being able to access Mount Mitchell State Park from the parkway. So there's limited access. So, because of the slides on the parkway and because you know they've opened parkway has done amazing work of getting back open where they can. But there are some other catastrophic, you know, impacts to the parkway that are going to take some long-term to get back in and some of the other ones. We've opened sections as best we can. You know, grandfather, the backcountry trails are open but we still have not opened the profile trail access point because that connector trail and the profile trail still need some work. They still have a lot of trees were uprooted and there's extensive sort of holes and gaps in the trail tread that we really have to continue to work on, so that one's going to be, you know, a little bit longer term. We're hoping to get that one open sooner than later.
Speaker 2:The state parks that are going to be reopened. I have to believe that there's going to be some changes there. Some of these, I would imagine it's not like it's completely unrecognizable, but I have to believe there's some changes even on the ones that you all have had to, or that you've been able to reopen. What should visitors visiting those parks expect in terms of safety, accessibility? Yeah, really kind of those two primary things.
Speaker 4:So one of the things that we've been very conscious of is we don't want to open something that's not safe. So we've been very cautious, even to the point where there are some trees that are hanging that probably aren't a problem, but we want to make sure that they're cut, taken down, and they're probably going to have to be done professionally before we get the general public in there. We just want to make sure people are safe as we can. So I'd say the biggest change is most of the trails. All of that information is listed on our website, ncparksgov, and so folks can go there. But I think one of the big changes probably is some of the longer trails are not open yet, Just because, that's you know.
Speaker 4:We were able to get some of these. We wanted people to come back to the parks and have a place to go to hike, picnic, have a safe time. But some of these longer backcountry trails, as you can imagine, there's still a lot of trees down there. It's not as easy to get equipment in, so those are some that we're going to take a longer time to get back up and running. So we just ask that people be cautious. We really ask that people don't go off trail. It's not safe usually to go off trail, but it's even less safe now to go off trails where we really have not gotten into those areas cleared trees. There could be hanging trees off trail and so we're really cautioning people, that we really want to make sure they're safe as they're in the park.
Speaker 2:It sounds like everything y'all are doing and I wouldn't expect otherwise is just very cautious, very calculated, understanding that there are parts that you want to open back up because you understand that people need this and want this in their lives, but at the same time you're trying to balance that with the safety. And it definitely makes perfect sense too that some of the longer trails you know, just as you were explaining earlier, these are kind of part of the really long-term challenges that you're going to have for total park recoveries. And it's one thing for the short trails and for people to be able to get out there, but there's a lot of miles of trails within our state parks here and that is understandably that it's going to be more of that long-term challenge for you all to recover. But there's no doubt that you'll get there. It's just going to take a little bit of time.
Speaker 4:Exactly and you know things will look a little different. There's trees down, there's impacts, the streams look different, so you know people will see things that are different. But we understand that and we're grateful. We feel like state parks are really a part of the fabric of North Carolina and really a part of the fabric of Western North Carolina, and so you know, for us we really wanted to get things back and we understand that people's physical health, mental health, spiritual health really really is intertwined with getting people out into nature. I have that time out in the woods where I can decompress and, you know, enjoy that time. So I think that that's so important. So we are, we're working hard to make that happen for folks and as cleanup efforts, brian, or anything monetarily.
Speaker 2:How can people who really care for our state parks get involved with our state parks, especially right now?
Speaker 4:You know we have a lot of great friends groups that are engaged in a lot of great ways with the park, so that's always my encouragement.
Speaker 4:They do a lot of work for us, they help us with events, they do fundraising, so I think a lot of those are areas where people can really help out and get involved in work days. We're also careful right now A lot of the work that's being done is that removal and cutting and things like that. You know we're hoping as as that sort of kind of winds down. But there's a lot of other things that I think are huge. As you know, there's a lot of trails in the mountains. There's a lot of trails the mountains, the sea trail, the wilderness gateway all of these trail systems that are in North Carolina, obviously Appalachian, that are going to take some time. And I think maybe getting involved in some of these areas where people can help you know they have their own teams that work with them, but getting involved in that I think is always great and work days would be a fabulous way to get involved in assisting in those efforts.
Speaker 2:That's great advice and I'll do my best to make sure that we have as many links to as many of those friend groups as we possibly can. So thanks for sharing that. So any last things that you would love to share with listeners that are looking to revisit not just the state know, I think just having that mindset, having an awareness, a caution as we're getting out there.
Speaker 4:But on the, you know, on the other side of that, I hope people will re-engage with Western North Carolina. It's an amazing place. There are so many beautiful spaces out there. I really do think, you know, I think the recovery efforts hopefully we can make it stronger than it was. Hopefully we can, you know, repair things with resiliency and come back stronger from this terrible storm. And I think it's that opportunity we have and I know there's so much momentum just to get things back. But as we do that, I know there's going to be some thought put into how do we do that in a way that we do that sustainably. And I think that's always that, as we continue to look at those things and we look at how can we make Western North Carolina more resilient, I know we'll look at that as we come back and as we put our facilities back in. Was this the best place for it? Is there another place that we could move, that could be more resilient to this type of storm?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's wonderful. Again, on behalf of everybody who enjoys our North Carolina State Parks, thank you for the work that you do, that your team does, and that all of these ancillary groups that come alongside you have done and will do as well. It's great work. North Carolina State Parks are the best. I just wish you all the best as you're kind of navigating through this. And boy, it'd be great, maybe in a year from now, to come back and have this conversation and just see how far all of this recovery has actually come and some of the resiliency pieces that you all are putting into place. It'd be a real honor to kind of revisit that in about a year from now and see where we are.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that'd be great. I'd love to do that and, as always, I I think we we have so many great supporters and and I appreciate you know your words, but you know the park system is for the people and there's so many great supporters in our elected officials. There's so many people that are so behind the system. We're just grateful to have that support and I'm grateful to have this opportunity today to talk to you about the park system today, to talk to you about the park system.
Speaker 2:While state parks were on the front lines of recovery for communities and visitors, another group of experts was focused on the resilience of North Carolina's wildlife and ecosystems. One of the big questions following a storm of this magnitude is how do our natural systems, especially aquatic life, adapt to such extreme conditions? Joining us now is Doug Bessler. He's a biologist with the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission who has been at the forefront of assessing the storm's impact on wildlife populations. Doug, thanks for being here. After hearing Brian's insights on the immediate closures and response efforts, we know that a storm of this scale can feel well overwhelming, both for the people and the land. But from a biological perspective, what does recovery look like for the wildlife in the region, particularly in the wake of such unprecedented flooding?
Speaker 1:This is a catastrophic event that no one in living memory living here has ever seen anything like this. You know we're talking a once in 5,000 plus years storm. You know some areas had over 30 inches of rain within a 24-hour period. So you know the amount of water that moves through these systems was has never been recorded. You know lots of lots of flood gauges topped out. We as scientists didn't think gauges topped out. We as scientists didn't think that they needed to be. We didn't think there would be storm events that tall that we'd be recording. So it was. It was really something that was catastrophic.
Speaker 1:And when you look at those images on tv and as biologists and as people as we see the, as the waters, we see it, as you said, you're looking at that and you're thinking how in the world could anything survive that? How could there be anything left? So we get lots of questions from the public like what are you going to do? Are you going to start restocking these areas? Are the fish all gone, and that sort of thing. And so it's from a biological perspective. It's actually pretty interesting because these kinds of events, although not to this magnitude, they've happened for, you know, thousands of years. You know, across the earth and you know wildlife populations and fish in particular, you know they have adapted to some extent to these things. So you know there's areas like, for instance, where we've had like massive landslides and if that occurred from, say, the top of a stream and it just we just had complete blowout of the entire stream with debris, then as biologists we would expect, yeah, that that would have been a significant impact and we could see where we have populations of fish, for instance, that got fragmented, where we may see losses of whether it's trout up in high elevations or other species that might literally be lost in a segment because everything was scoured completely out of the area by the debris flows. And you know we will assess some of those in the next year or so just to see what has happened and what extent of populations have shifted, like their range. You know where they live within a stream or a watershed.
Speaker 1:But in general, those high water events, you could even within a couple of days of the water receding. You could if it was just a water event. If it was just high flood events, you could even within a couple of days of the water receding if it was just a water event. If it was just high flood events, you could literally go out to those locations and still find fish there. They have an unbelievable ability to find low velocity areas within the stream channel and find some refuge. Certainly individuals would have been lost, but generally speaking, the same fish community that was there prior to the event is probably still there. It's hard to imagine. When you look at that devastation you're thinking how could some small three-inch trout, as an example, survive?
Speaker 2:that.
Speaker 1:But they do. Life has an amazing ability to persevere, and the adaptations that animals have to do that especially fish is really astounding. So we're anxious to see what those impacts are.
Speaker 2:As a biologist and a scientist. You're pretty brilliant people and you've been studying hydrology and fish and the aquatic life for a while. I'm just wondering if there's any long-term impacts right now that you're sort of anticipating.
Speaker 1:There's different impacts, I guess, depending on where you might be within the watershed impacts, I guess, depending on where you might be within the watershed. So one of the impacts, which is actually, you know, a problem that people will know, is that, as we saw all this debris move, you know now we have huge amounts of deposited sand and silt in floodplain areas or on the sides of rivers that the channel has cut back through, but on the sides of them it's very unstable, right. So if we get more large rain events like, let's say, we would have had another tropical storm this fall or something that might have released a lot more sediment but in the coming years and decades that sediment will continue to bleed into a lot of our river systems until it gets revegetated as those riparian areas come back and start to close back in on the stream channel and start to overtake it, where you get into a closed canopy system where the trees are actually touching over those streams. Until that happens and really kind of locks up that sediment. You know we're going to stand to see sediment impacts on fish particularly will affect the reproduction. You know a lot of fish, for instance, in streams. They they're nest spawners, so they're looking for clean gravelly areas, that kind of thing, and they're going to lay their eggs on there. So when you get a continual sediment impacts on those with even small rain events, then that over time can really impact populations. It can impact their spawning success and things like that. So that's one thing that will be definitely a negative that could take.
Speaker 1:You know, it's going to take decades for this to kind of clear up naturally, where we have stream channels that we would consider stable and everything's coming back naturally. A positive would be that you know in the world of trout you know in North Carolina we're lucky we have 7,000 miles or we did of water in North Carolina that we knew that supported trout. Naturally that means they survived, grew and reproduced on their own. As an agency we don't need to do anything to them. They do their own thing. It's an amazing, wonderful resource, but those fish need clean, clear gravel to spawn in.
Speaker 1:So what happens after a big event like this is that this occurred pre-spawn. So this was in late September Brook trout spawned in the fall, brook trout spawned in the fall, brown trout spawned in the fall. Those fish did not spawn yet. So what happened is that those huge rain events came through. So what fish are left? It opened up tons of gravel, so now there's just an enormous amount of clean gravel into these headwater systems.
Speaker 1:So, as a biologist, what we expect and we'll be able to prove it next summer, see whether we were accurate or not is that we will expect next spring to see high success rates for spawning for trout. When we go out next summer and we do some surveys, I suspect we're going to see all kinds of small trout all over the place, because that clean gravel which can be a limiting factor in many cases of trout spawning success or the amount of trout that spawn. Now, if that's open to any of them that are left, as long as a male of breeding age can find a female of breeding age, then they're going to have a fantastic spawn. So there's goods and there's positives and negatives to.
Speaker 1:You know these, these kinds of events, but, um, you know, long-term sediment's going to be the big challenge. And then you know there's also going to be systems where we had major debris flows may have wiped an entire population of fish out of a segment of stream let's say it's a mile or half mile because of, say, a giant log dam. So until that clears up, naturally blows out again, fish won't be able to get back into that segment. But those would be opportunities that as an agency in particular the case of brook trout, if that's the case we would look at that as a restoration opportunity and maybe go in and move fish back into where they were, just to keep them in the best habitat, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Will stocking these rivers be a part of this as well? You'll have sort of the relocation to some areas that are caused by the blockages, but then will the restocking of the rivers help to populate these as well, just more longitudinally?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. So our hatcheries, like for instance, as an agency, we produce 1.2 million trout a year and all of those fish are sterile so we intentionally make them so they cannot reproduce. So the entire goal of our agency stocking program is to provide recreational opportunities for anglers and our stocking programs are a huge part of that and anglers love it and that's a big part of that $1.38 billion that our agency provides and an economic impact to the state of North Carolina. It's those stock trout that people love. But, as I mentioned before, those 7,000 miles of wild trout, those are a special, unique resource. If we got a place in North Carolina that has wild trout in it, that is a nice place on the earth and we do not want our hatchery fish to interbreed with those fish or to out-compete them. So we take pains to separate both physically, like we would not stock trout in a place where we have wild trout reproducing. As a general rule, we want to be able to keep our programs generally in places where by the end of the spring the summer is going to, the water is going to get too warm, where trout would not survive their year round anyway. So and those are cases for our stock top program. Where we can, seasonally whether it's in the spring where it's kind of put and take, where we stock trout and people can immediately harvest them and take a moment to eat them, or in the fall when it cools back down, we stock some in those locations. We take advantage of the cold winter temperatures and we have a catch and release fishery for stock trout called delayed harvest. That's also very popular and then we open it up for harvest in the before, in the early summer, before it gets too warm.
Speaker 1:But in the case of the wild fish, you know, within a riverine system in particular, those species already are in the watershed. They may have got temporarily moved out of a certain segment, but as long as they have access to that segment then they'll recolonize it very quickly. So we'll just kind of let them do their own thing. And, as I mentioned, like in the case of brook trout, brook trout are the only trout that are native to North Carolina. Rainbow trout were brought in from the Sierra Nevada range and brown trout are native of Europe and were brought in, but brook trout are the unique resource here that we take great pains as an agency to protect and try to enhance.
Speaker 1:So in the case of brook trout, we would intervene as an agency and we might move fish from below a segment up above it, because the genetics of those fish would be the same. We wouldn't try to take hatchery fish that have a different genetic and put them up there. So, generally speaking, we're going to let nature take its course. It'll do its own thing, and then people will be amazed at how fast stuff will rebound. Nature is surprisingly resilient. That's amazing good, because we would never as an agency. If you think about how many species are out there and the numbers of fish, there's no way we would have to build hundreds of hatcheries to grow all the different types of fish and the numbers needed to repopulate. So luckily, the seeds are out there and they'll spread back into those areas that they were either devoid of or where they got really, you know, knocked back a lot and there's just low numbers, wow, so. So that's the good news.
Speaker 2:That is good news. And you mentioned kind of two things there. You said with all the new rock bed that it's going to be clean, so that it kind of expands those areas for the fish to hatch, and so that's a wonderful thing. But then you also mentioned just the economic impact that angling fishing that brings to this, this whole region. And so as people begin to come back, as areas begin to open back up, how might these impacts affect where people can go, what they can expect to see or experience in each of these areas in this river? So if they're just now coming back first time post to lean what, what can they expect?
Speaker 1:well. So what we did is, first and foremost, after, you know, we made sure everyone was safe and accounted for and all that kind of stuff after the impacts is, we started to go out and assess locations. So normally there's 30, this fall would have been in early October. We would have started stocking our delayed harvest program at 36 locations in Western North Carolina. That's extremely popular. It's a huge economic driver for local communities and so we initially had to just postpone our stockings because we didn't know where we could put fish. We had one of our trout hatcheries got completely wiped out the Armstrong State Fish Hatchery in North American so we were down to one hatchery. But we were trying to figure out how are we going to do this. So our staff went out and we assessed locations. So we had to make sure that it was an area that was not in an immediate disaster recovery area, that it was safe for us to get to in terms of our stocking trucks, and then that it was safe for anglers to get there and there weren't any hazards. So we did those assessments and of those 36, I think we were able to stock about I think 15 or something like that and that's posted on our website and we started stocking last week. So in the places that were unaffected, our hatchery our other hatchery that was surviving is up and running and at some point they don't want to keep those fish on site. They need to get them off the farm, so to speak, because they were meant to go out this fall. So we were able to out this fall, so we were able to.
Speaker 1:You know, wherever we had a, an area that was safe and we could get to, and we've been checking with communities too. We want to make sure that we're not sending anglers to somewhere that they're getting in the way you know, and that's a big thing. You know, it's one thing to have an economic driver, but it's quite another thing for us to, by putting trout somewhere, creating an attractive nuisance to people trying to do very important work out there. So we started that and then we've even been able to add some Like. An example would be that as these places come back online, we can add them Like. Initially we were not able to stock the Greenway. There's a section we stock in Marion on the Greenway, right through town, on the Catawba River. We did not stock it the first round because it was not open.
Speaker 1:And the community did not at the first round because it was not open and the community did not.
Speaker 1:You know we didn't have permission, so to speak.
Speaker 1:But now they do have it open and the community is in favor of us stocking and they want people back in there.
Speaker 1:So we added it back in. So, as places kind of come back online, we're adding them. So we're trying to get people out into these areas and, you know, hopefully, you know, get people something to do and get the angling community that wants to be out there, out there, and then of course they're going to, you know, provide some economic stimulus to those local areas that really really need it right now, and then we'll continue that assessment and as areas get safe. But what we've been telling anglers is that make sure where you're going to park is safe, make sure it's not interfering with any kind of utility work or other infrastructure work, and then be careful in the streams. All that water shifted the bed of all of our streams, so where you used to walk and step on rocks that were stable, so to speak, because they've been sitting in a stream after something like this, every rocky step on moves or wants to move and that can be really dangerous and it's very easy to fall.
Speaker 1:So we just tell anglers to be very careful. If you got a waiting staff, take a waiting staff, you know. If you got you know, make sure you're wearing felt sole shoes if you can, because that helps a lot with sliding. And just you know, take it slow and just be very careful on moving around the stream. And even ourselves we've we have not been out doing a lot of survey work because of that. So we're going to let things sort of settle down and we'll do some of our trout survey work up on the national forest and other places a little later or earlier in the spring, just to kind of let everything settle down and make it safer for our staff to be out there.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's wonderful. So it sounds like you really are working with a lot of the local agencies. You know I guess really nobody sort of at that state level. These state departments sort of operate in these silos and it sounds like you're really kind of working with the local areas to say, are you ready for us to stock if there's rivers in their areas? And you're just kind of listening to them. Then you're sort of following along and and being good partners and when they say you know, no, not yet. It's no, not yet. And when they say that you are ready, it sounds like you are really kind of altering a lot of your plans and your schedule releases and so forth to really kind of meet the needs of those communities and the anglers that come to those those areas as well yeah, absolutely, and we're really acting on the fly, like I will tell anglers.
Speaker 1:You know, like that, that issue with Marion just came up last week and so within a day we had that site added on our website. We had talked to the hatchery production folks and they had the run scheduled. And there you go, you know, just trying to be as reactive as you can and just trying to make sure that you know we're double checking with everyone and to make sure that, whether it's another state agency, like, say, dot, that we're not out there sending anglers across a construction zone, for instance, where they're impeding the work on what might be a bridge, like out here.
Speaker 1:One of the big challenges is the places that Vermillion closed is that the bridges are out so people can't get to them. Either we can't get to them or the way you have to get to them is like a very circuitous route, going places where we don't want people going, or the DOT might not want people going yet, that kind of thing. So some areas, the stream itself might be okay, but getting there is the challenge. We're not, you know, we are very glad to provide opportunities and it's a stress relief for a lot of people to be able to just get outside and be with nature you know whether you're catching fish or not but just to be out there on a beautiful day like today and catch a fish or just enjoy that and be away for a little bit from all the stuff that's going on. Because everybody that lives out here you're kind of looking at it every day.
Speaker 2:Every day, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we want to do that. But you're kind of looking at it every day, Every day, yeah. So we want to do that, but the last thing we want to do is get in the way. So we're just trying to be very cognizant and anglers have been super understanding. We've had quite a few calls and I've not had anybody get upset when we tell them, hey, here's our plan. They just appreciate that we're trying to get fish out there as best we can.
Speaker 2:Now that's amazing work. So thanks for all that y'all are doing there, and I know that you mentioned calls and questions. What are some of those common questions that you're receiving from anglers that you know? If somebody is listening to this show, this podcast, they can, you know, listen in and even be an ambassador to spread that you know amongst their other fellow anglers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, most people are just wanting to know are we stocking? And some people have been like reluctant to call and ask, like they kind of feel like we know that was pretty bad right is, is it even should we be even calling? Is that? You know, they kind of feel not kind of guilty about doing that. You know, maybe they live in charlotte because, like we have huge numbers of people that fish come and western North Carolina, from Mecklenburg County and from Wake County, huge numbers, the whole Piedmont, forsyth County, winston-salem, and so those people aren't in that every day. So they're just kind of curious. Like I normally have a trip and you know I'm trying to find out. So we've been, you know, just directing people to the agency website ncwildlifeorg, and we make any updates on that daily, whether that's adding new streams as they come up or whether something happened where a road got closed because of construction and we had to make a change, whether it's a stocking date or whatever the case may be. It's just direct people there Because there's a lot of people.
Speaker 1:It's amazing the number of people that come to western North Carolina to fish, particularly in the fall but even in spring, from other places like the Northeast or the upper Midwest who come down here from Ohio, from Kentucky, from all sorts of places, just to fish.
Speaker 1:And one of the reasons for that is because you know and they've got means to fish. They could be fishing out in Yellowstone National Park, you know, they could be fishing in California, they could be fishing in all these places and they come down here, specifically One, because they do like our program and I'll admit it, I think we have a fantastic trout program as it is. You saw great staff and I think we have one of the best programs in the East, for sure. But anyway, people come because you know I think we're providing a good product and that economic impact shows that. But also because it doesn't freeze here in the winter, you can come and fish here in January, go fish in Montana in January. So that's a big driver for these these times of years is just our, our really nice climate. We have compared to, you know, places like out West where it's, you know, seasonally fantastic but in the middle of the winter, you know it's not real high on a lot of people's list of fish, unless they're just super diehard, you know.
Speaker 2:Right, well, it's not real high on a lot of people's list of fish, unless they're just super diehard. You know, right, well, it sounds like you are very thoughtful in your approach here. You went through your response phase. You're going into recovery phase.
Speaker 2:We know that recovery phase is going to take a lot longer and I do love the fact that there's some pros that came out of this. You know if we can always kind of search for those silver linings. But you know, as you were kind of explaining that in this bedrock sort of expanding, you know, just as I'm driving up to Pisgah Forest and I'm going through the, even the Davidson River, and just seeing I mean it's just changed the broad Rocky Broad's, changed French Broad, I mean there's so many areas that they have just changed so much, and so I know that recovery work is going to be a little bit longer. But it sounds like, you know, in some of the other things, the structures, they have to be put into place and studies have to be done. But when you're talking about nature and it has the ability to sort of heal itself, yeah, it will recover.
Speaker 1:It will recover.
Speaker 2:It will recover, and so I love the fact that you have all of these resources on ncwildlifeorg, but I'm wondering if there's any sort of last minute things that you really would want people to know, like what's some of the most important things you want listeners to walk away from with an understanding about the state aquatic resources.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just that it's going to. When you come out here especially people who've been out here before or routinely come out it's going to look different. You know some of those. You can go to some streams and they look as if nothing happened. And you can go to other streams and it just looks like you don't recognize anything. Everything has changed and to just realize that's just part of you know the natural process and you know it will heal itself. You know, even if no intervention is done, that over time, you know, and it can be geologic time, but over time it will, it will go back and this is just you, just a natural part of things that happen.
Speaker 1:To be just respectful of everyone and cautious. Just because there's so many equipment, vehicles out here, just the amount of trucks that are hauling tree debris away, it's just crazy. There's just an immense number of external people that are in here doing construction work and just be mindful of, give them the right of way. They got important here doing construction work and just be mindful of you know, let give them the right away, let them you know they got important work to do and just be be patient with people and if roads get closed or you get held up for 20 minutes because they got to load a truck, then just be playing for that sort of thing. And you know, uh, it's just going to be part of it, for you know, a number of years here, you know, like at my son's middle school, where they had basically like a wrecked soccer field.
Speaker 1:That's now a giant pile of debris that the Corps of Engineers is using as a staging area. So it's going to be a while before they, you know, use that again. But that's just, that's just part of it. And just just be patient. Check our, check our website and you know, and people can call us at any time. We're glad to talk with anybody, whether it's somebody in the community, whether it's an angler, whomever it is, that's got a question or concern. That's where here's a resource. Just give us a call and I can put them in touch with with anybody most likely who can answer the question as we wrap up today's episode, it's clear that the road to recovery for western north Carolina is far from over.
Speaker 2:While many of the state's beloved outdoor spaces are reopening and welcoming visitors back, there are still countless communities who have lost everything and will be rebuilding for years to come. This storm was a reminder of the strength of our people and the resilience of our natural landscapes, but it also highlighted the importance of ongoing support. The recovery efforts will take time and there will be many ways we can all help, whether it's donating to relief organizations, volunteering our time or simply spreading awareness of the needs in these affected areas. Please be sure to check out the show notes for links to some great organizations that have ongoing relief opportunities and ways that you and I can get involved. If you're planning to visit or explore North Carolina in the coming months, especially in the western North Carolina region, remember that your travel decisions have an impact. Support the businesses, parks and towns that are still on the mend, and make sure to stay informed about how you can contribute to the recovery. Together, we can rebuild lives, restore communities and ensure that the beauty of this region endures for generations to come.
Speaker 2:I'd like to give a special thank you to Amanda, brian and Doug for taking time to shed light on how their respective organizations have been and will continue to support our beloved region and the entire state of North Carolina. You know I always sign off by saying I encourage you to wander far but explore local. And while that's still true, I truly encourage you to keep the people of the hardest hit areas in our region in your thoughts and prayers. Winter is setting in and there are some long, hard days ahead for many. Please consider checking out the links to ways you can help and, by all means, continue to visit areas that are welcoming us all back. The local economies need your support, so please consider ways you can support them with your time and your talents while you visit. Until next time, I do encourage you to wander far but explore local. Thank you.